Piet,

Another good topic, friend… thank you.  Can I just clear a couple of things up and perhaps give some information to dispell some of the barbs in this thread.

Nunc Wrote:

Moore College is the last place I would send a needy person…

Moore College is a Theological Training College that means that it trains men and women in the skills of reading the scriptures in their original languages so that they may teach and explain them to others.  They are also taught the skills of exegesis, hermeneutics and homiletics.  They are given a rigorous overview of historical theology, the history of mission, instructed in evangelism, pastoral care, church history, philoposhy, ethics, psychology, christian education, christian worship, biblical theology, doctrine, New Testament background, Old Testament backgorund and Pauline Theology.

Moore college is not the Newtown Parish Church, it is a Theological College - it is as appropriate to send a needy person to the front door of Moore College as it is to send them to the front door of Sydney University.
However!  Having said this, very many needy individuals are very greatly helped by the college community and faculty of Moore every week in Newtown.  I know, because I used to be involved in that kind of care for outsiders who wandered into the College community when I was there.  Further, College students teach Scripture at the local primary schools and become very involved with the families whose children attend them.

Added to this, every student is required to attach themselves to a parish as a catechist and it is there that they are trained in the practical skills of pastoral and parish ministry over three to four years.

There are very good churches in the Newtown, St Peters, Stanmore and other inner City communities who serve the community in very practical ways, and Moore College students and faculty are involved in almost all of them.

Nunc, I’m sorry dear friend, but your comment is ignorant and unworthy of you.

Contemplative wrote:

Perhaps if they actually used the chapel on their own property (as in the Moore College Mini Kings College Cambridge Chapel) they might get real experience in building a congregation.
Try something a little closer to home, Moors!

See the answer above Contemplative… and the post by Craig J. in this thread.  You might also like to consider that all College students come into Moore after having exercised ministries as lay people in their own churches that have been recognised by their own ministers and congregations, as well as blessed by God.  Perhaps this means nothing to you, Contemplative, but it means a very great deal to the selection panel and the committee that vets candidates for ordination.  Your comment speaks very little about your depth of information and understanding of Moore College’s staff and students, and a very great deal more about your own resentments.

Contemplative also wrote:

Pardon my ignorance - - Moore College Students are assisting a church plant in a Presbyterian Church????
I hope the Anglican Diocese is not paying for that little venture.

Moore College accepts Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist and even Pentecostal students.  It always has done so.  Those who are not Anglican candidates for ordination pay full fees.  As do independant Anglican students.  The college itself does not “fund” anything by any means other than to provide man-power for ministry, pastoral work and outreach.
What the diocese funds is generally decided by Synod and Standing Committee.

Friends, I’m sorry if this reads like a diatribe, but I am so tired of sitting back while others take free shots at Moore College, especially when most of the derogatory comments are born of ignorance about the college, its staff and students.  If you want to critique the College, PLEASE DO!  But do it on the basis of your own knowledge and fact , not heresay, myth, rumour, gossip or prejudice.

Otherwise, you do the christian brothers and sisters who live, work, learn and teach there a very, very grave injustice.

No holding back in your last post is there Scott. I can understand your frustation though. But please brother, tame the tone. You have every right to clarify fallacies borne of ignorance, but remember that it needs to be loving and humble, gentle, etc etc.

Having no first hand experience with Moore College, I venture no further into this topic.

Manny,

You are right.... I should not have responded in the same tone as the jibes that were given.  I apologise and repent unreservedly.

What appears to some to be ignorance on the role and function of Moore College really reflects quite poorly on an understanding of the larger role of the anglican communion.

As an anglo catholic, grown up in the Sydney Diocese, where is the theological college to support anglo catholics who are members of the Sydney Diocese???

Now, successive Archbishops have failed to address the theological rift that occurs between the catholic side of the anglican church and the calvanists. Yet we are all the same members of Christs church.

We see that members of our Catholic tradition are banished to Adelaide, Canberra, Morpeth, Brisbane to receive theological training - with no support from the Diocese.

From some of the views expressed on here it would appear that Moore College is really a place where, as long as you can pay the fees, you are entitled to receive a theological education.  However, where is the financial and theological support for catholic members of the Anglican Church in Sydney?

There is no fallacy of mis-information - and you will find that more and more young anglican catholics will be ready equipped to be vocal in driving away false and strange doctrines which are contrary to God’s word. 

The thing that I enjoy as an Anglican is the corporate fundamental nature of the church structure - combined together in common mission. 

In reference to Moore Theological Chapel - the point has been made to me by several staff members that it is a place of hollow significance - that it has a great opportunity to provide a space of Moore College Style “Liturgical” excellence - for lack of any better phrase.  Yet, I do not know of any person who has said that they were inspired by what takes place in the chapel.  I don’t see any Moore College students involved in practical mission at churches such as Enmore, Christ Church St Laurence, St James King Street or Kogarah????

The insight program this week may provide some further challenges for the way in which religious fundamentalism is viewed.

G’day Contemplative,

[quote author="Contemplative"]The insight program this week may provide some further challenges for the way in which religious fundamentalism is viewed.

Could you provide us with some more details as to this program’s content or viewpoint?

Timbo

G’day Contemplative,

[quote author="Contemplative"]
As an anglo catholic, grown up in the Sydney Diocese, where is the theological college to support anglo catholics who are members of the Sydney Diocese???

Now, successive Archbishops have failed to address the theological rift that occurs between the catholic side of the anglican church and the calvanists. Yet we are all the same members of Christs church.

We see that members of our Catholic tradition are banished to Adelaide, Canberra, Morpeth, Brisbane to receive theological training - with no support from the Diocese.

I would expect the reverse could be easily argued for other dioceses in Australia - where is the theological college to support Calvinists who are members of the (insert non-Calvinist diocese of choice) Diocese? Members of our Calvinist tradition are banished to Moore, Ridley to receive theological training. So what is the underlying point to be made here?

As I understand it (happy to be corrected), “Sydney Diocese” does not ban anyone not holding a degree from Moore or Ridley or not ordained in Sydney or Armidale from ministering within the diocese - witness Christ Church St. Laurence or St. James in King St. I would suggest that what you are describing is the result of the simple fact that most congregations within Sydney prefer a Calvinist theology, rather than an anglo-catholic one.

Ultimately, within the broad sweep of Anglican theology, we could suggest that the practical approach of respecting each other’s conscience should preside. It is pointless and unhelpful to pretend we are united theologically when we clearly are not. We can, however, maintain a legal and administrative unity for all sorts of practical reasons. As such, it is as unloving to demand that Moore college start providing a specifically anglo-catholic ethos as it is to demand that Morpeth start providing a specifically Calvinist ethos.

Is a theological college or a diocese obliged to support a point of view that the majority of its constituents disagree with? This is the great question confronting all Anglicans presently, such as in the New Westminster case, where a clear majority of diocesan synod delegates voted in favour of blessing same-sex relationships. Once we have already taken the step of holding separate theological viewpoints, does it or does it not make sense to continue any sort of organisational ties with one another?

[quote author="Contemplative"]In reference to Moore Theological Chapel - the point has been made to me by several staff members that it is a place of hollow significance - that it has a great opportunity to provide a space of Moore College Style “Liturgical” excellence - for lack of any better phrase.  Yet, I do not know of any person who has said that they were inspired by what takes place in the chapel.

Well, now you do know of such a person - me. Attending chapel once a week often inspired me with the resounding singing of great hymns and songs in a church building packed with committed, eager Christians, and with the dedicated, thoughtful exposition of God’s word by those same Christians.

[quote author="Contemplative"]I don’t see any Moore College students involved in practical mission at churches such as Enmore, Christ Church St Laurence, St James King Street or Kogarah????

Perhaps this is because they have not been invited, or would not be welcome with their conservative, evangelical, Calvinist ethos? Would you have them try to minister in a church where their conscience may be beset by disagreement? Would you have Morpeth College students placed to mission at St. Matthias, or Christ Church St. Ives, where their conscience may well be beset by disagreement?

Timbo

Thanks Tim - I’ll send a letter off today to Christ Church St Ives offering to run a Rosary Group for Anglicans.  I’ll let you know if I get a response.

Contemplative,

Exactly which part of the Moore College curriculum/community life that I have outlined is unacceptable to Anglo/catholic churchmanship?

The College does not seek to change a person’s theological orientation, only to teach the Scriptures and theology with rigour.  Evangelicals go in… Evangelicals come out.  Liberal Anglicans go in… Liberal Anglicans come out.  Pentecostals go in… Pentecostals come out.  Therefore I assume that Anglo/Catholics can go in, and come out Anglo/Catholics.

I can think of no-one ‘banished’ to another diocese to train - though there are many who have chosen to go elsewhere. Indeed, my own experience was that I was encouraged to come into Moore, even though I was in the Canberra/Goulburn diocese.

Scott, my experience of people who have come out of Moore COllege is that they all think very similarly, if not alike. You yourself (or was it Tim? memory’s not so good today) said that “most parishes in Sydney prefer a Calvinist point of view"…

But I put to you that it’s a case of the chicken and the egg. Moore College has not always been Calvinist in the strict sense that it is today. It has been heading towards a battened down, very stringent form of Calvinism since the days of Broughton-Knox, who was principal IIRC while the Jensens were there. They have continued his tradition with the result that most people come out of Moore thinking that way and as ravid supporters of the Jensens. People of other points of view are not welcome - or if they are, then they will have a hard time with lecturers who have a Calvinist point of view. If I went to Moore, for example, I would probably end up committing suicide because a) I find Calvinism oppressive and b) I would not be allowed to give full expression to that which feeds my spirit. Another friend of mine (a liberal evangelical) was told by the archdeacon that the folks at Moore College would probably not accept him with his views. I can think of others I know who choose not to go to Moore precisely because the theology is stifling…

The trend towards Calvinism in the diocese has only grown in this time; it hasn’t always been as black and white, straight up and down. There used to be a large number of traditional Anglican places, places that were middle of the road, that had an evangelical outlook but were nevertheless distinctly Anglican (in liturgy and practice). Those places have disappeared and been taken over by the more extreme form of Calvinism which is being preached today.

Actually I think it speaks volumes that Baptists and Pentecostals and Presbyterians are happy and at home at Moore; there is obviously no distinctly Anglican teaching or even reference to Anglican history and liturgy.

I think this is what Contemplative was criticising. In speaking with members of the Prayer Book Society I heard that Moore College had turned away their offer of running a one day workshop on the BCP with the utmost disdain. I would have thought that if any consideration of Anglican church liturgy was to be taken seriously, a workshop on the BCP would have been welcomed. (It is my understanding that the BCP isn’t used, and I would hazard a guess that if the APBA is used, it’s only to get a general structure. It’s all very fine “worshipping” with other Christians, but this is a *training college*, and as such I believe it needs to train its students in different ways of doing church - or at least make them aware, because it’s in awareness that a certain level of tolerance for other practices can be found.)

Maybe it would pay you not to jump to conclusions immediately about “jibes” as you put it: I was serious when I said above that the last place I would send a needy person would be Moore College. The reasons? You yourself gave them: parishes are better at that sort of thing - or ought to be! Moreover, my experience of Moore College people is they are so caught up in trying to convert one to their way of thought that they have no consideration for basic needs of the body and mind… Why does it always have to be a case of “save the soul” before looking after people’s basic needs? (Sounds suspiciously like Jansenism to me… or Hellenism if you dont’ know what Jansenism is.)

G’day Nunc,

Just wanted to say thanks for you thorough post - it makes it much easier to avoid misunderstandings and helps keep the discussion both civil and productive. A few comments:

[quote author="NuncDimittis"]Moreover, my experience of Moore College people is they are so caught up in trying to convert one to their way of thought that they have no consideration for basic needs of the body and mind.

Was this based on your experience with you, or with people needy in the basics of body and/or mind? I would expect that if you met me you would see (I hope?) that the basic needs of body and mind for me are satisfied, so the area you could most help me with would be in furthering my spiritual needs, e.g. helping me understand the alternatives to Calvinism. Unless you were needy in the basics of body and/or mind, perhaps this is why any experiences you have had of Moore people were the way they were. I have met Moore people with plenty of consideration for the basic needs of body and mind, and others very caught up in trying to convert me to their way of thought! It just depends on the circumstances as to what is appropriate.

[quote author="NuncDimittis"]You yourself (or was it Tim? memory’s not so good today) said that “most parishes in Sydney prefer a Calvinist point of view"…

Yup, that was me.

[quote author="NuncDimittis"]But I put to you that it’s a case of the chicken and the egg. Moore College has not always been Calvinist in the strict sense that it is today ... The trend towards Calvinism in the diocese has only grown in this time; it hasn’t always been as black and white, straight up and down. There used to be a large number of traditional Anglican places, places that were middle of the road, that had an evangelical outlook but were nevertheless distinctly Anglican (in liturgy and practice). Those places have disappeared and been taken over by the more extreme form of Calvinism which is being preached today.

In my very limited understanding of the history of Sydney Diocese, I would agree with the thrust of this - Sydney has become more evangelical/conservative/low/Calvinist/whatever, but I understood it had always been more so than most other dioceses, right back to its origins in the eighteenth century. Can you or any other posters give us some more details on when the shift in “alignment” began and roughly how many parishes have “converted” - or is that a fruitless exercise?

Timbo

Nunc wrote:

Moreover, my experience of Moore College people is they are so caught up in trying to convert one to their way of thought that they have no consideration for basic needs of the body and mind…
....If I went to Moore, for example, I would probably end up committing suicide because a) I find Calvinism oppressive and b) I would not be allowed to give full expression to that which feeds my spirit.

Nunc, I am not trying to invalidate, in any way, your personal experience.  All I am saying is that I am tired of the gross generalisations and demonisings that are sent in the direction of Moore.  This seems to be a favourite passtime of these forums.  You dismiss Calvinism as the source of all spiritual suffocation and evil, yet you make no specific theological (or even pastoral) argument as to why you conclude it is so erroneous.

Your experience of Moore College (people) is not my experience.  Both my wife, our children and I found our time in the Moore College community to be a warm and joyful experience.  We were deeply saddened to have to leave.
Your experience of Broughton Knox, Peter Jensen and Phillip Jensen is not my experience.
Your generalisations are unfair.  You call for sensitivity to your spiritual needs, and yet some of your comments are most insensitive indeed.

As one who has a very strong and very fond association and experience of Moore College and the staff who prepared me for ministry, as well as a very great love for the evangelical Heart of Sydney Diocese, I feel frustrated by your comments.

You need to explain why I have to tip-toe around your sensitivities, when you seem so unconcerned about mine…

This is getting borderline guys, after Nunc replies how’s about we wrap it up…

From my reading of the history both comments are true.

Yes, Sydney Diocese has always been a strong evangelical flavour… more so than most other Anglican Dioceses and this goes back to the evangelical chaplains to the first convict settlement.. Richard Johnson and Samuel Marsden.

And yes, Sydney Diocese has been gradually becoming increasingly reformed evangelical since WW11. But this is not entirely the result of some grand diocesan design. Evangelical churches have tended to grow and duplicate while the non-evangelical churches have not been as vibrant. In the St George area, for example, during the inter-war period there was a strong and vibrant non-evangelical ministry. The (originally) high to middle-church St John’s, Penshurst ‘planted’ a host of daughter churches in the region. However over time the passion of these churches waned and so some became unviable and others looked for a new direction appointing evangelical rectors. For example as late as the 1990s the small high church parish of Mortdale was ‘merged’ with the larger evangelical parish of Peakhurst. I believe the last remaining of these ‘high church plants’ in that region is South Hurstville.

Interestingly, Sydney Diocese had two distinctly non-evangelical bishops in the 18th century (Broughton and Barry). Many of the institutions that may not seem to ‘gel’ with the evangelical character of the Diocese were begun by these men. Indeed, the cathedral is the legacy of Broughton and the elite schools including the Cathedral school are the legacy of Barry.

An influential liberal wing within the Diocese continued until about WW11. Indeed even during the 1930s leadership of this liberal group was given by the Dean of Sydney (I think his name was Talbot). This continued until about WW11 under Archbishop Mowll’s very long evangelical leadership of the Diocese.  It should also be remembered that Moore College was originally seen as ‘liberal’ by evangelicals in Sydney. It was not distictly evangelical until the post WW11 era, again this change was initiated under Archbishop Mowll’s guidance of the Diocese.

G’day Jeremy,

Thanks for the history lesson - very informative.

Timbo