Craig Schwarze - 14 October 2008 12:26 PM

For this reason, Craig, I would omit ‘Here I am to worship’ from the list. I don’t actually think there’s anything wrong with asserting that singing Christian songs constitutes a part of Christian worship, but given how widespread and accepted the unbiblical view that singing=worship is, I’d do all I can to stop perpetuating it.

I just feel that is going too far in the opposite direction.

Yeah, you’re probably right.

Young men like me who grew up listening to Metallica are probably a tad extreme with these things. And Christian music is certainly a subjective topic.

Would you agree that the point is still valid though?

Would you agree that the point is still valid though?

To be honest, I don’t really toe the party line on “worship”. It seems to me that saying “everything is worship” has led to the point where nothing is worship. That is, the language of worship has simply disappeared from the vocabulary of Sydney Anglicans.

We’ve rightly criticised the notion that music alone is worship, but having torn that down, nothing substantial has been erected in it’s place. People are even hesitant to use the word, out of fear of being thought a bit sus.

So that’s kinda why I put that song in the list. I admit, it was a bit of bait. But it’s a topic worth stirring up.

Craig, you’re dead right about us having over-reacted on worship language.  Worship is more than music, and it certainly does embrace the whole of my life (Romans 12:1-2), but when I gather with God’s people I certainly do so in order to worship him (as well as to be encouraged, to minister to others, etc.).  More precisely what we do in our gatherings is worship God corporately which by definition we can only do when we are gathered.  But it’s too awkward to always say “let’s corporately worship God” (and probably redundant anyway, seeing as we are at that point already together!).  So yes, let’s rescue the language of worship for our gathering/meeting/congregating/church.  But let’s also work hard at breaking down the idea that worship = music which, as Ben says, is thoroughly unbiblical.
Bob

I would have thought our corporate worship to God is when we corporate encourage and serve each other and spread the gospel together etc.

I don’t feel we lose anything by avoiding the word entirely. We have many other related or synonymous words that will do the job with none of the baggage.

Dannii Willis - 14 October 2008 01:48 PM

I would have thought our corporate worship to God is when we corporate encourage and serve each other and spread the gospel together etc.

I don’t feel we lose anything by avoiding the word entirely. We have many other related or synonymous words that will do the job with none of the baggage.

Hi Dannii
What single word encapsulates all we do when we gather?
Bob

Gather? Congregate? You can’t have a single word really mean much more than just that… as it will be different for each group and each time they meet. If you want something more meaningful then the Bible has it already: each one has a psalm or a teaching or a prophecy… everything for edification.

Ok, the little site I created this week has clocked up over 200 hits already. I’ve put up chords for the following hymns -

Abide With Me
All People That On Earth
Amazing Grace
And Can It Be
Be Thou My Vision
Come Thou Fount
Crown Him With Many Crowns
God Has Spoken
Holy, Holy, Holy
How Great Thou Art
It Is Well With My Soul
Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee
Love Divine
O For A Thousand Tongues
O Sacred Head, Now Wounded
When I Survey

Any favourites I’ve missed?

Craig Schwarze - 18 September 2008 08:47 AM

Here I am to Worship (Tomlin)
Blessed Be Your Name (Redman)

My Redeemer Lives (Hillsong)
Jesus Thank You (Sovereign Grace)
Never Alone (EMU)

How Great Is Our God (Tomlin)
Hungry (Vineyard)
That’s Why We Praise Him (Not sure)
Christ the solid rock (EMU)
Salvation belongs to our God (Not sure, famous tune)
How Can This Be? (EMU)
Let Your Kingdom Come (Sovereign Grace)

You can find lyrics and chords for most of these just by googling the title and “lyrics” or “chords”. Melodies are a bit harder if you don’t know them already…

Okie people, knowing full-well I could be putting myself through the fire, I’m just gonna come out and say it:

What’s so good about Chris Tomlin?

Hear me out for a minute:

Someone once pointed out to me that “You are amazing God” could be sung by a Jew or a Muslim, given that it was all from the OT.

Now, don’t misread me here, I know there is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with singing songs of praise to God based on purely Old Testament teaching. I would definately say that such songs should constitute a large part of our singing diet. The Old Testament is near to 80% of the inspired Word of God, and certainly integral for the teaching of all Christians. The comment was not so much a criticism, but perhaps a potentially concerning observation.

When I listen to many other Tomlin songs, I realise the observation holds true. There are songs about God with little or no reference to Jesus.

Once again, just to be super clear, I’m not saying this is wrong in any way, and in fact, it can be really great.

But I can’t help wondering if some of Tomlin’s popularity comes because he leaves God less defined in his songs compared to many old hymn writers, by not having much of a focus on Christ. If God is ‘indescribable’, and not often defined by the person and work of Jesus (who is the image of the invisable God), then perhaps Tomlin’s songs show us the less confrontational side of the character of our God, and thus are likely to be enjoyed by more people. I think an argument can be made that the ‘Word of Christ” in Colossians 3 refers to the Gospel, and that therefore, the purpose of our singing is to teach and admonish one another with gospel-centred wisdom. Of course this will involve much of the Old Testament teachings about God, but presumably there should be a balance between that and the focus on Christ.

Of course music is a subjective topic, and I understand well that many people think about these things differently to myself. I certainly don’t mean to offend, or to be petty (though I’d understand if others thought I was), but I just wonder if there are others out there who share a similar perspective? Doesn’t it frustrate you just a bit that someone who gets a great name as a Christian songwriter doesn’t seem to have that much material focused on the person and work of Jesus?

Honestly, I think Chris Tomlin’s sings hit the mark with people as they are:

1) Well written (musically)
2) Easy & pleasant to sing
3) Do not have “Jesus is my boyfriend” lyrics.

You can find lyrics and chords for most of these just by googling the title and “lyrics” or “chords”. Melodies are a bit harder if you don’t know them already…

If I need to learn a new song it can often be found on Youtube.com Someone will have posted it there.

I have discovered how to save the movies to my computer so I can play them any time.

Tomlin writes *really* good melodies that are also easy to sing. Good lyrics will not survive without a good tune!

His songs are also pretty easy to play.

I agree that they lack a bit of Christology, and also a bit of gospel edge, so I’d supplement them with other stuff (such as Sovereign Grace, which has heaps of Christology and gospel edge).

Craig Schwarze - 31 October 2008 08:04 AM

Tomlin writes *really* good melodies that are also easy to sing. Good lyrics will not survive without a good tune!

His songs are also pretty easy to play.

I agree that they lack a bit of Christology, and also a bit of gospel edge, so I’d supplement them with other stuff (such as Sovereign Grace, which has heaps of Christology and gospel edge).

That sounds like an approach I could adopt - thanks Craig.

I certainly take the point about ‘playabilily’ and ‘singability’. Its an ever important balancing act, along with the lyrics.