Donna:

Ken
Be grateful that Catholics generally don’t regurgitate the sins of the fathers of the reformation.  There have been plenty of opportunities to do so on these threads and, in my experience, Catholics tend not to do this. Catholics are generally much more charitable in this area. 
Regards
Donna

Donna, all people, save Jesus, are sinful. My only praise for leaders of the Reformed movement is when they clearly state Scriptural truths. Prophesy, after Christ, is to re-state what He stated, nothing more or less.

When any leader of any Christian Church speaks about our faith in terms which are unscriptural, I ignore those words. Be they Catholic, or as you call them, Protestant. Christianity is not about men, but Jesus.

But unfortunately the RCC claims much more about their leaders - and especially Popes. They are almost demi-gods to their followers, and they are said by the RCC to be Christ’s vicars on earth. and successors of the apostle Peter.

Bible based Christians should not hold up our pastors of the flock as being supermen, or more special than all other followers. Priests and ministers etc are merely supposed to lead by example and by explaining the Good News of the Kingdom, as explained by Jesus and his appointed apostles.

So I agree with you and RIW, that leaders of the Reformed churches sinned, as all have done. But, as I explained we should look to Jesus, the Word and live in complete faith, assured of our salvation - as promised by our Lord.

Ken Austin - 14 October 2008 03:58 PM

Donna:

Ken
Be grateful that Catholics generally don’t regurgitate the sins of the fathers of the reformation.  There have been plenty of opportunities to do so on these threads and, in my experience, Catholics tend not to do this. Catholics are generally much more charitable in this area. 
Regards
Donna

Donna, all people, save Jesus, are sinful. My only praise for leaders of the Reformed movement is when they clearly state Scriptural truths. Prophesy, after Christ, is to re-state what He stated, nothing more or less.

When any leader of any Christian Church speaks about our faith in terms which are unscriptural, I ignore those words. Be they Catholic, or as you call them, Protestant. Christianity is not about men, but Jesus.

But unfortunately the RCC claims much more about their leaders - and especially Popes. They are almost demi-gods to their followers, and they are said by the RCC to be Christ’s vicars on earth. and successors of the apostle Peter.

Bible based Christians should not hold up our pastors of the flock as being supermen, or more special than all other followers. Priests and ministers etc are merely supposed to lead by example and by explaining the Good News of the Kingdom, as explained by Jesus and his appointed apostles.

So I agree with you and RIW, that leaders of the Reformed churches sinned, as all have done. But, as I explained we should look to Jesus, the Word and live in complete faith, assured of our salvation - as promised by our Lord.

Ken
I would like to go over the scriptural basis for the papacy, its succession and the infallibility of the Pope when speaking ex-Cathedra, however, I need to comment on your post.

Popes are not held as demi-Gods.  Catholics do as the early Christians did.  Read Acts.  They flocked to see the Apostles and even pushed to the front so that even a shadow of Peter’s may cover them. Being a Catholic for my whole life, I would have to say that I did not come across any person who held this type of admiration for the Pope.  The Pope was understood to be a man, commissioned by Jesus, through His Church, to shepherd His flock.  Nothing more, nothing less.  He was honored, but not worshipped, because of the office he held.  It appears to me, through my own experience being involved with Protestantism for many years, that if a non-Catholic sees any hint of honor being given to anyone other than Jesus, immediately suspicion arises and the conclusion is made that worship or undue reverence is being given.  There is a pre-occupation with it.  As a parent, do I become jealous if my children are praised?  No, even more am I delighted than if the compliment was given to me.  In fact, that compliment given to my children is really a compliment to me in disguise.  It is the same with God.  What must be remembered that any honor Catholics give is always because of Christ and through Christ.  Christ’s glory is made even more glorious because He can do great things in those of us who are pathetic without Him.  Peter is a perfect example of this.  I think Jesus chose Peter because of his weakness in order to show that it is through Him that all is possible.

I agree with you Ken, we should look to Christ and His word.  That is what the Catholic Church teaches today and will continue to teach through the power of the Holy Spirit.  I do hope that if you are to be critical of the Catholic Church, you would at least make use of orthodox Catholic material to base your criticism on.  I don’t have a problem with people who reject Catholicism based on accurate investigation, however, I do get a little irritated with people basing their criticism on inaccurate resources. 

Just to let you know that I am not picking on you, and in one sense understand your opposition to what you believe Catholicism teaches.  If, what you and others claim is really true, I would have left years ago. All I am asking is a little integrity.

Regards
Donna

Ken Austin - 14 October 2008 03:58 PM

When any leader of any Christian Church speaks about our faith in terms which are unscriptural, I ignore those words. Be they Catholic, or as you call them, Protestant. Christianity is not about men, but Jesus.

Ken, the funny thing about your comment is that I have never seen, in Christian circles, more guru worship than I have with Evangelicals.
The power of the pastor in many non-conformist congregations (AOG, Churches of Christ, etc), both in the awe in which he is placed and his power to interfere in the lives of his congregants is something that members of most present day traditional churches will never experience.

One rare exception to this that I have witnessed when I was a student at UNSW is the power that is imputed by his followers to Phillip Jensen.

Eric.

Oh, and there is also the ‘author as guru’ phenomenon in Evangelical circles. Once upon a time it was J Packer. But every couple of years a new one comes along.

The irony, we think Catholics worship Mary and the saints and a few relics on the side and they think we worship our authors ;)

Just to let you know that I am not picking on you, and in one sense understand your opposition to what you believe Catholicism teaches.  If, what you and others claim is really true, I would have left years ago. All I am asking is a little integrity.

Regards
Donna

The Roman Catholic Church does place certain members on a pedestal. Popes, cardinals, priests, Mary, Saints. That is the tradition of the RCC. Surely you dont contradict this? Are all Catholics, from all times after Jesus equal in God’s eyes? I see the pattern of a hierarchy, am I wrong? And what’s this idea - purgatory?

I would say that the Catholic Church has tended to stress the human nature of Christ, and has slowly denied his deity to a certain extent. It has tended in past years to actually promote Mary to a position of adoration akin to deification. I hope that Jesus would always, rightly be, the only focus for all Christians.

Donna, all I do is stress that the message of Jesus, which is God’s message, is a saving message. His message is uncluttered with any other requirements. “Believe me”, He said, “and you will be saved”.
Mens sins will not be counted against them because of a faith in Jesus in their lives. God has sent Jesus to rescue the lost.
We would be fools to not be followers of Jesus, feeding on his Word in peace. Reassured by his promise of eternal Life.

If any church does not teach the Gospel message clearly; if any Church leader fails to clearly teach the Gospel message clearly - then they have failed to carry out Jesus’ commission (that he gave to the apostles after his resurrection. ) We need to examine our Church to see if this mission is being carried out faithfully. Do you agree?

If a Church fails to teach the Gospel message clearly it fails to honour God. If any Church teaches misinformation about the Gospel or Jesus message, it is wrong, and leads us astray. Some Churches teach things which contradict Scripture. Some Churches misinterpret Scripture. This includes religions including some Protestant Churches, I am not pointing to Catholicism.

I look at my church and am satisfied that we are well taught in Scripture - that we think we are hearing God’s Word clearly. God’s long term saving plan for mankind. Fulfilled in Jesus.

Churches are not perfect, and make mistakes. The Church is full of people who confess that they are sinners, and have placed their faith in God to forgive them. 

If you think the Roman Catholic Church has carried out the commmission from Jesus to teach His Word, well, then that is your judgement. I pray for you, and do not judge your decision.
Jesus has been placed in the seat of Judgement and He will judge people, Churches, leaders of Churches, past and present.
(I think I understand Jesus’ demands, even though I fail to live up to them.)

Amen

Ken
You obviously did not read anything I said in my last post nor any other posts.  My message was to be sincere in your criticism of the CC.  Clearly, you are either incapable or just unwilling to do so.  I won’t ask again.
Regards
Donna

Hi Danii Re #424

That is a pretty incisive comment, you could also add the idolatry of both the bible and of personal experience against the protestant side and the menace of popery on the catholic side to the list of straw men.

Now there’s an idea, anyone interested in starting up a “straw men” thread. 

cheers

John

Hi there Ken

My question is what is your source of knowledge about the catholic church?  Do you think the people who provided that knowledge may have had a barrow to push?  Doesn’t it strike you as odd that none of the catholics here recognise your portrayal of catholicism?  While we may all be brain washed dupes, that would seem to me to be a poor argument.

cheers

John

Dannii Willis - 14 October 2008 08:30 PM

The irony, we think Catholics worship Mary and the saints and a few relics on the side and they think we worship our authors ;)

Yes, Dannii. In both cases, practices that are intended to mediate God and the truths of our common tradition can become ‘sick’ and, instead of mediate, replace. (At least, that is our fear.)

The point of my post was simply to remind Ken that perhaps he should look at cleaning up his own back yard before criticising the yards of others.

Eric.

PS. I’m more of an author fan than a saint fan myself. Luckily, a lot of our ‘saints’ got their status from being great authors!

In reply, after my trip away, I looked up a Catholic website to find some truths which Catholics favour. I wonder if all Catholics understand these truths, or if these truths are confined to the ones who actually read and look for answers? By this I suspect that a learned few in the Catholic Church have one view, and the majority are of the old school. (correct me if I am wrong)

Anyway I am returning my views, despite my excommunication ceremony in previous posts.

The post in question raised my eyebrows: Got Questions - Virgin Mary

The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary can hear our prayers or that she can mediate for us with God. Jesus is our only advocate and mediator in heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If offered worship, adoration, or prayers, Mary would say the same as the angels: “Worship God!” (See Revelation 19:10; 22:9.) Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name” (Luke 1:46-49).

I ask if this is the view of the Vatican? Is this view shared by most Catholics?

The major way Catholics “venerate” Mary and the saints is by praying to them. As the following article demonstrates, prayer to anyone other than God alone is anti-Biblical – praying to saints and Mary. Whether Mary and/or the saints are prayed to, or whether they are petitioned for their prayers – neither practice is Biblical. Prayer is an act of worship. When we pray to God, we are admitting that we need His help. Directing our prayers to anyone other than God is robbing God of the glory that is His alone.

Another way Catholics “venerate” Mary and the saints is by creating statues and images of them. Many Catholics use images of Mary and/or the saints as “good luck charms.” Any cursory reading of the Bible will reveal this practice as blatant idolatry (Exodus 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:12; 1 John 5:21). Rubbing rosary beads is idolatry. Lighting candles before a statue or portrayal of a saint is idolatry. Burying a Joseph statue in hopes of selling your home (and countless other Catholic practices) is idolatry.

Now I believe what you have been saying, Donna, RIW etc, I am gobsmacked.

Goodness Ken,
Your link is NOT a Catholic website, even though you claim it is!  If you want a Catholic website to use for debate, then www.catholic.com is one I would recommend, which gives good biblical basis for Catholicism.

Donna

If anyone has been watching “Inquiry from an outsider”, Ken’s last post is exactly what I was talking about.  Hope that provides a substantiation my claims.
Donna

Ken

I think your chosen web-site is clearly the product of someone dissaffected with many traditional practices of Catholicism.

Your example, however raises a question for me.  Is the term “mediation” such as Mary is described as doing on our behalf in heaven, the same as or different from “intercession”?

The reason I ask the question is that I have come to understand the ideas of the communion of saints and eternal life to mean that those who have gone before us into the presence of God - through their death - are still alive with God, and just as we might ask a friend to pray for us - intercede for us - we can ask those in heaven to pray for us or intercede for us.  They have access to God just as my friends on earth do and it seems to me that it is open to us to ask.

Ken, I’m with Donna and John on this one. That web site is just not right. If lighting candles before a great Christian saint is idolatry, then what is lighting candles before photos of loved ones who have died? Praying to someone is definitely not the same as worshipping them. In fact, the term ‘pray’ used to be used in the vernacular to mean ‘beseech’ ("I pray thee, stay with us tonight."). The notion of departed Christians in the presence of God interceding for us, is as John stated, continuing what we do with each other, as an embodiment of living the Gospel (do we imagine they’re off playing golf?).
Eric.

Ken writes:

I ask if this is the view of the Vatican? Is this view shared by most Catholics?

You will find your answer in the ‘About’ page of your website:

We are Christian, Protestant, conservative, evangelical, fundamental, and non-denominational.