In that case your Keller-inspired friend may have been quoting Tim Keller at the Proclamation Trust’s Evangelical Ministry Assembly 2007 (and probalby other occasions too)..
This web-site has some excellent Tim Keller stuff but those EMA 2007 talks were superb - beg, borrow or steal them to listen to them.
Very much worth listening to from someone who has done superb church planting work in New York....
but hasn’t seen a personality cult develop around him 8-)
P.S. Why does this web site list him as “Timothy Keller” on the apologetic talks here?
From what I have heard that is not how he is normally introduced nor how he refers to himself (in the occasional instance when he refers to himself in the third person.)
One thing a friend suggested is that you preach, every week, as if there are unbelievers in the congregation.
Terry Gallagher - 02 October 2008 07:07 PM
In that case your friend was plagiarising Tim Keller at the Proclamation Trust’s Evangelical Ministry Assembly 2007 (and probalby other occasions too)..
Bah - that’s been around for decades - if not hundreds of years - perhaps even millennia.
I first heard it at least 15 years ago. I’m sure I’ve heard Chappo say it. And I think I remember reading Spurgeon saying something similar. Even Calvin rings a bell (perhaps something on the visible/invisible church?)
But it’s such a great saying, it worth saying again and again. Preach the Gospel brother!
[Bah - that’s been around for decades - if not hundreds of years - perhaps even millennia.
I first heard it at least 15 years ago. I’m sure I’ve heard Chappo say it. And I think I remember reading Spurgeon saying something similar. Even Calvin rings a bell (perhaps something on the visible/invisible church?)
But it’s such a great saying, it worth saying again and again. Preach the Gospel brother!
Mike
Hi Mike,
I have changed the word I used to “quoting” to avoid any negative implication of “plagiarising”.
Keller has been working on Redeemer Presbyterian church plant and its offshoots in New York for about 20 years so he has probably been saying it that long or longer (e.g. when he was a theological teacher before that).
As you say, I expect the general idea has been around longer in some places, although it is foreign to the Christendom thinking that shaped Western Christian culture for many centuries.
I think Keller states it more clearly and strongly than anyone else I have heard:
That we should all behave in every meeting of the church on the basis that there are non-Christians there.
[My paraphrase]
And he means every meeting in the broadest English sense of the word “meeting”, not in the new church-jargon sense.
Listening to Mark Dever, from Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC, you always hear him speaking as if there are Christians and non-Christians present.
I think it is a good strategy to remind people that we are not Christians because we attend church, and that we must actively embrace Christ personally.
People, treat church like a club, and not a church. It is a place to meet friends and not to worship God. It is at times all cliche and gimmicks, where people refuse to step outside of their comfort zone. The church is a reflection of the culture in which it resides and it does not show the culture of God very well.
People, treat church like a club, and not a church. It is a place to meet friends and not to worship God. It is at times all cliche and gimmicks, where people refuse to step outside of their comfort zone. The church is a reflection of the culture in which it resides and it does not show the culture of God very well.
I agree Bronwyn, this is a growing concern in many of our churches. We shouldn’t be asking what can we do to make the church grow. Rather, what is keeping our church from growing.
Based on an attendance of roughly 65,000 (that’s right, Jeremy?), that mean’s we’ve only increased by about 300 people over the whole diocese for the last 3 years.
Yes, but of course that’s net gain. transfers in/converts/births v transfers away/de-converts/deaths.
For example, there would be many churches who could say that 10% of their pewsitters are newcomers/converts and yet their total attendance hasn’t changed.
Why is this? The faithful die and/or move away.
Its worth remembering there are a number of factors which means Sydney Anglicans have to run harder to stand still, if that makes sense.
1. Because of the pre-existing ‘hole’ in 30-something attenders, the average Sydney Anglican is older than the average Sydneysider. This means Sydney Anglicans are dying off at a faster rate than the average population.
2. I also suspect that geographic demographic factors are working against us. The Sydney population grows through o/s non-Protestant migration. In contrast, Anglo-Australian Protestants are moving out of Sydney, sometimes interstate (eg Qld) but also up the north coast. Indeed, Sydney’s Protestant Bible belt has always drifted outwards over time (white flight etc). In the 1950s Kingsgrove was in the Bible belt. In the 1980s it was Sutherland Shire. In recent years the Bible belt to the north has crossed the Hawkesbury and onto the Central Coast… while still taking in the Hills and lower Blue Mountains.
By saying this I’m not meaning to dismiss Michael or Craig’s comments about reform etc, just pointing out some of the bigger picture.
Yeah, I’m sure both of those points are true Jeremy - older Anglicans and a less WASPy Sydney. The net result is that, in relative terms, our church has gone backwards the last 3 years.
Assuming we all agree we need to turn this around, what sort of reforms are needed? Are we essentially on the right track, and we just need more time? Or is something more radical needed?
The evidence is anecdotal, but I’m becoming convinced that there is a massive failure in evangelism happening out there in SydAng land. The Mid Point report said the same thing, in more diplomatic terms. I think it’s becoming beyond dispute that our prior models of evangelism simply no longer work. This has all been said before, of course, in the Total Church thread especially.
65,000 in church in the Diocese of Sydney? I have to say that is quite impressive - it’s 36% of the average Anglican attendance nationally (178,000) as last assessed in 2001 (almost certainly lower now).
If Sydney/Wollongong has, what, 5 million inhabitants - that’s 24% of the 21 million Australians. That leaves the remaining 113,000 Anglicans in church on Sunday scattered amongst the remaining 16 million Australians.
By my estimate, that means that Sydney Anglican churches are about twice as full as they would be if located in and operated by any other Australian Diocese.
This cannot, as others have said, be explained by demography. Sydney is the multicultural capital of Australia, with a low percentage of English speakers at home (64% compared to 78% nationwide), low immigration from traditional Anglican sources (3.5% English born compared to 4.3% nationwide), and a lower percentage of self-identified Anglicans (17.9% compared to 18.7% nationally).
By my estimate, that means that Sydney Anglican churches are about twice as full as they would be if located in and operated by any other Australian Diocese.
That may be true Alan, but we appear to have stalled…
- We often “talk” about what we need to do, but we don’t have a “go”. Move outside the safety zone in how we “do church” and “care for one another” (do the research, pray and have a go!) If it doesn’t work at least you’ve tried and learnt.
- Engage with the local community (and I don’t mean cupcakes at the local fete). Understand what excites your local area. Just love your local community. Take advantage of today’s culture. For example, coffee ministry?
- Is planting churches the answer to reaching out to non-Christians or are we just shuffling Christians? Should we focus on building up our own church first, before we plant a replica?
- Dare I say, do we sometimes need to change our sermon style to engaged with non-Christians does the exegesis of a long passage for a sermon engage non-Christians?
- How can we engage the heart as well as the head?
According to Alan’s stats 1.3% of Syndey residents are Sydang, let alone all the other denominations. Now it would definitely be great to reach the other 90%… but I can’t help wondering if it would be better to reach the 100% who don’t know Jesus you find in some foreign cities.
By my estimate, that means that Sydney Anglican churches are about twice as full as they would be if located in and operated by any other Australian Diocese.
That may be true Alan, but we appear to have stalled…
If we are only growing at 0.5% over three years, then it is a spectacular effort to have significant year on year increases in financial giving (from 2006 to 2007 of over 5%; from 2005 to 2006 it was about 10%). The financial capacity to fund ministry in the diocese and globally seems to have grown significantly over the same period, and it would be fair to say that much of this is from changed hearts not just from changed bank balances.
God will be faithful with our continued investment in things as long as we keep trusting him.
Oh, and to have a church growing at all in the western world is an achievement in itself.
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