Donna Green - 02 October 2008 11:28 AM

I think we should put aside our own ‘agendas’ and stand up for God.

Donna, I think God can stand up for himself.

I find some of what Michael said in his post to be blasphemous.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to but given he doesn’t believe in God, and given the horrendous abuse he’s endured from those in the church, and given the apparent denial and total lack of justice from those who claim faith, is it surprising he holds God in some contempt.

We shoulld be ready to defend Him at whatever cost.

What do you mean by that? Surely we should be showing compassion and love and ensure where possible that justice is done, and by that hopefully counter-balance some of the terrible things that Michael has endured from representatives of the church. I think in this situation, loving actions will speak much louder than any words in defence of God.

I hope one day you are able to forgive and be free of the hurt you are experiencing.

I too pray that Michael may be able to forgive those who’ve done these terrible things. Of course, that forgiveness is for his own healing and not to be understood as relinquishing the need for the perpetrators to receive justice.

Angus
I knew it wouldn’t take long. 

Show me where I have not given compassion towards Michael.  True compassion and charity is not allowing another injustice to be carried out.  That is a false charity.  So you seem to be fine with God receiving blasphemy - I am not and I do not apologise for it.  God can stand up for Himself Angus, however, we are called to be His witness. God does not expect us to be spiritual wimps.  If you did not cringe at what was said in regard to Almighty God, then perhaps you need to ask yourself a few questions as to why not!
Regards
Donna

Donna, I’m not sure what blasphemous is ........everybody keeps telling me that the Lord will fix it when these guys get to heaven.
Well, I can see that it would more likely be a sin to allow it to continue to happen based on the fact that “God will get them in heaven”

So if we see someone being bashed ....maybe walk on by. Right thing to do according to this theory of “God will look after it”

Some things need to be dealt with in the here and now whatever you believe.

Michael Scull - 02 October 2008 11:44 AM

Sorry to have offended you Donna
Maybe you could shed some light on why He selected me for this particular trial?
Why didn’t He select you?

this ‘Why Me/’ question is always on my lips and no one has explained it to me yet.

Michael, I enter this conversation with some trepidation because each individual is a world and no one can truly see another’s seeing. I am assuming that by articulating your question on this site, you might at least not be antagonistic to someone addressing it. At least, this is how I have been addressing it for myself.

The cry “why me?”, is the cry of the universe - at least the universe of beings able to ask that question. As the Buddah observed, life is suffering. And, because each individual is a world, their particular circumstances will be unique and the cry will always be fresh. As a psychologist I work with people’s suffering all the time, and as a person I have my own suffering.

One insight that helped me was the acceptance that I am my suffering (as well as my joys). There is no suffering ‘over there’ and me ‘over here’. All the events in my life, and in fact all the events in the universe since the beginning of time, put me here, now, writing this. Likewise for you, now, reading this. If I had the same circumstances as you, I would not be me, I’d literally be you!

Generally, this realisation causes vertigo: there is no place to stand. And so we retreat behind self created boundaries to generate a sense of a separate, self contained self. It requires great faith and a lifetime’s work to surrender this drive. It involves humiliation.

But such surrender is also an opening to a great power: the power behind the universe itself. This power lies upstream of one’s consciousness and upstream of one’s life narratives. Nevertheless it empowers them. This is the power of dynamic oneness which, in mythological language, is God. (As a Christian, I am happy to use mythological language, symbols and ideas, but I know the difference between God and Zeus. [However, years of experience have lead me to sense that for some Christians, their God is Zeus baptised.])

I believe that it is this reality that Jesus (and many mystics) calls us to surrender into. As a Christian (though some, after reading this, might disagree!) I believe that our life-as-narrative can be saved. That’s part of what ‘resurrection’ means. But it is not saved through narrative, that is, that some time in the future, downstream, everything will turn out for the best. Rather, the narrative must turn back and remember what is upstream. The prodigal son must remember the father. The soul, in surrendering its get rich projects and all other means of securing separateness and uniqueness, must return home.

When I wrote ‘must’ in the paragraph above, I am not suggesting a moral imperative - that you are a bad boy / girl if you don’t. I am suggesting a spiritual, or perhaps, better, a life imperative - like the imperative to get out from in front of a computer screen and get some sunshine and fresh air, or go dancing.

This may not remove the primary sufferings of physical pain, immobility, stress, etc. But it can release us from the secondary, existential anguish of ‘why me?’

Kind regards,
Eric.

Quoth Eric

As the Buddah observed, life is suffering.

As did also Wesley as the Dread Pirate Roberts.

Donna,
I’m not sure just how addressing blasphemy in such circumstances is useful or is in fact defending God. The Bible has plenty of records of people crying foul against Him. The Psalms and Job are pretty good starting points. The one who cries “Why me?” finds out and repents in due course, not because someone gives em a lecture about how they should feel good about the pain they feel apparently at God’s hands.
and personally I can understand, to a limited point, Michael’s desire for a more immediate action. One of my family was sexually assaulted and that person, as far as I am concerned, lives because I have made a decision not to kill or maim. And believe me, the temptation to inflict what I am perfectly capable of, up close and personal with my hands and feet was very, very real.
Where was God in all that? I have a small idea now and I have no real idea how to tell Michael or anyone else how to approach this. It happened, it shouldn’t have. It took a rational decision to choose not to blame God but I have yet to understand the “Why?”

I can hear the Van Morrison song’s chorus “There aint no Why, Why, Why. It just is!”

Owen Atkins - 02 October 2008 10:37 PM

I can hear the Van Morrison song’s chorus “There aint no Why, Why, Why. It just is!”

Yes, Owen. Summertime in England, from Common One. Great song, excellent album, no?

The heading is
Sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church
but are you guys aware that any catholic paedophile priest that is handled through the Towards Healing service of the Catholic Church are not put on the Register of Paedophiles in Austraila.
....Makes a mockery of the paedophile list if some are excluded.

Anyone having access to that list may run the name Father Francis De Dood SDB and I’ll bet he doesn’t come up.  Try Fr. Jack Ayers and he won’t appear either.
Both these guiys have had sizable maounts payed out in compensation for their paedophilia ....but why aren’t their names struck off the ‘Working with Kids’ register?
I would have thought it someones moral duty ......but morals don’t come into this argument I guess.

Owen Atkins - 02 October 2008 10:37 PM

Donna,
I’m not sure just how addressing blasphemy in such circumstances is useful or is in fact defending God. The Bible has plenty of records of people crying foul against Him. The Psalms and Job are pretty good starting points. The one who cries “Why me?” finds out and repents in due course, not because someone gives em a lecture about how they should feel good about the pain they feel apparently at God’s hands.
and personally I can understand, to a limited point, Michael’s desire for a more immediate action. One of my family was sexually assaulted and that person, as far as I am concerned, lives because I have made a decision not to kill or maim. And believe me, the temptation to inflict what I am perfectly capable of, up close and personal with my hands and feet was very, very real.
Where was God in all that? I have a small idea now and I have no real idea how to tell Michael or anyone else how to approach this. It happened, it shouldn’t have. It took a rational decision to choose not to blame God but I have yet to understand the “Why?”

I can hear the Van Morrison song’s chorus “There aint no Why, Why, Why. It just is!”

Owen,
If you read what I said, I am not at all saying Michael has no reason to be angry (and indeed, I can understand his anger aimed towards God).  Let me say quite clearly, I find the whole issue of abuse within the Church abominable.  I believe it has been handled incorrectly and many mistakes have been made administratively and otherwise.  Quite frankly, I am amazed that no-one else is offended.  I understood that in making the comments I made would be seen as ‘inappropriate’ by some due to the terrible suffering Michael has had to endure.  However, I would have thought that compassion does not allow God being offended in the process. I sincerely hope that for those who object to my comments, are not doing so in order to uphold a position they hold on the Catholic Church.  I think this would amount to exploitation and would not be showing a sincere approach to Christianity.
Let God be the judge of what I have said
Donna

On a positive note, our Parish priest ( ordained in 1943) and priest of our parish since 1958...long before I was born..retires this weekend , afyer a lifetime of service. Is he going to a retirement village..no..he ‘s becoming a chaplain to nuns!

The truth is, it is precisely those who are uniquely “concerned about the affairs of the Lord” (1 Cor. 7:32), those to whom it has been given to “renounce marriage for the sake of the kingdom” (Matt. 19:12), who are ideally suited to follow in the footsteps of those who have “left everything” to follow Christ (cf. Matt. 19:27)—the calling of the clergy and consecrated religious (i.e., monks and nuns).

Donnas quote “Let God be the judge of what I have said”

So why not let God be the judge of what I say also ??? or are you something special?????
........and I’m also sick of people talking about me in front of me in the third person, like I’m some sort of novelty item.

Blasphemy I’m not sure of but rude is something I recognise straight away.

“Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.”

Possibly the quote you mention Owen, I am lucky enough to have a resident ‘Wesley’ expert here ....my wife ;)

The Buddhas not much fun ....I prefer Mark Twains approach
“Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates”

Michael Scull - 05 October 2008 11:53 AM

.I prefer Mark Twains approach
“Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates”

RRRRR me hearties - that’s what we’re talking about ;)

( I simply loved that quote Michael. I hadn’t heard it before - but it sure sounds like something he would say. )

“Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.”

Possibly the quote you mention Owen, I am lucky enough to have a resident ‘Wesley’ expert here ....my wife ;)

Good woman your wife!
Yup, that’s the one!
Any of you folks using Facebook who are into the PB orta have a go at the PB Trivia Quiz. (I did and got me a really high score)

Gordon asked in the first post of this thread.
“I wonder how our churches can better help those who have been abused, whilst ensuring that those responsible are called to account? “

I don’t know how that can be achieved at all. Most victims would have been years stewing.
Most ask why I waited until I did to expose what was happening ......I worked as hard as I could to get myself back up as a respected human being.....not the bogan my family were stuck with (just how I was thinking at the time)
My kids grew and had kids ....my business got easier as it matured and I found time to spend with my grandkids.
This was when I decided to take them to task ....when I thought myself strong enough to see it though.
Never imagined it would be a fight .....I even went thinking they would be interested in stopping it. (foolishly thinking it was about our children welfare and safety ....but it was about ‘duty of care’ only.

Anyone extends a hand to me I just have to ask “why are you with the clowns?.....why do you let these clowns run your religion when it’s obvious they have no respect for you/us....just read the recent history and tell me you also listen to their sermons.....bloody hypocrits all??”

I can’t see how you can be seen to patch up a mess like these have become without some symbolic response from the ‘flock’ like crucifying a few of these leaders that have caused the fiasco.
It would still only be symbolic of a need to tidy up......babble babble

“"I wonder how our churches can better help those who have been abused, whilst ensuring that those responsible are called to account? “
.......just do it!! and stop talking about it!! (the defrocking of Sharwood is a perfect example)

If the question was
“"I wonder how I can better help those who have been abused, whilst ensuring that those responsible are called to account? “

.....get me a meeting with all the DPPs at once and I’ll educate the lot of them. I’ll bring along two other victims I know and with our data bases we will show them a conspiracy to hide these paedophile priests. The rest should be easy.

....but no one has the guts to put it together.
I’m up for it...they cant do anymore damage to my family that they already have.

(message to all you hackers out there....the drives are in the cupboard! )