I feel a little like you are arguing using stereotypes and inaccurate generalisations.

lol - it wouldn’t be the first time. But I’m just calling it as I’ve seen it.

There are many ministers who are less than 4 years out of college who, even though they might not be the rector, are looking after their own congregations and in positions of great responsibility.

This will all depend upon the rector of course. In my observation, the assistant minister still pretty much has the training wheels on, and he has no authority to make any substantial changes, even if he has been given oversight of a congregation. The rector has established what church will “look like”, the assistant is there to try and implement that vision.

There will be exceptions of course…

Craig Schwarze - 12 September 2008 10:39 AM

Why not allow people to enter college straight out of high school? Virtually every other bachelor degress allow that.

Check your sociatas carefully - there is someone in first year who has done this.

Craig Schwarze - 12 September 2008 10:39 AM

People are talking about the 2+4 system - 2 years MTS + 4 years college. But it is really 2+4+4 isn’t it, with 4 years as an assistant following college. It’s only after that that we are willing to give anyone serious responsibility.

That’s overstated - plenty of people leave college straight into leading their own congregation, or church plant.  I suspect there’s a fair few Student Ministers who virtually look after their own congregation.

Be careful not to argue with straw men.

Of course - you may still have a point.

Mike

Check your sociatas carefully - there is someone in first year who has done this.

That’s really good to hear. My info is clearly out of date, but I’d always been told that college would not admit anyone who hadn’t already gotten a degree, or done several years secular work. And in recent years MTS seems to have become virtually mandatory.

What I’m arguing mostly for is flexibility of approach. If 2+4+4 works for you, thats great. But we need to find ways to harness the energies of younger guys who don’t want to follow that particular path.

And we also need to find ways to harness the abilities of older guys like Jeff, for whom things like full-time college may not be an option, but who earnestly desires to use his abilities to grow the kingdom.

Some of the requirements of training work as a useful filter to deter some of those who perhaps are not suitable for full time ministry.

I have heard all too often people saying they couldn’t go to Moore because they can’t live without income for 4 years. The reality is…
-Fee help means there are not the fees to pay up front that there use to be
-Students usually receive Austudy and payment for their student minister work, as well as support from working wives (where applicable) and friends.
-A lifestyle change that involves living simply and frugally is good preparation for ministry where you should be an example for others of how to live in a materialistic world
-Learning to trust God, when all the money you want/need is not sitting in the bank is helpful in your spiritual growth.

On the issue of age, when I applied to go to college at age 22, I was told by the bishops interviewing me I was a bit young. I was cheeky enough to ask them how old they were when they started college.... “Oh, younger than that, but things were different then...” was the reply.
Now that I have been out of college for 10 years, I find I am sometimes getting student ministers the same age as me or older. There definitely seems to be a trend of going to college later rather than earlier.

PS I am still looking for some enthusiastic church planters for our second church plant in outer western Sydney.  They would need to meet Mark Driscolls definition -that I would summarise as godly hard workers who are not expecting a church building or lots of cash.

I’d love to see people going into college younger. I was 23 when I started first year,

I agree Gordo, there seemed to be a bit of a push for a while toward people doing college older. Not sure if that is still the case or not. Why not allow people to enter college straight out of high school? Virtually every other bachelor degress allow that.

People are talking about the 2+4 system - 2 years MTS + 4 years college. But it is really 2+4+4 isn’t it, with 4 years as an assistant following college. It’s only after that that we are willing to give anyone serious responsibility.

And I think 10 years training is just too long and inflexible.

Slow down gentlemen! I remember at 23 I was so keen to ditch hairdressing for ministry full time that I thought I was going to explode. I am grateful to God that he delayed the timing. Enthusiam in young 20 something is great but I want to gently suggest that enthusiasm needs to be channelled and forged by time. I can think of too many occasions in life where my enthusiasm left unchecked caused damage, even though paved with good intentions.

As for entering Bible college straight after school, I think it is a good thing that Bible colleges don’t do this. People need to spend time in the adult world, and need to be able to relate to every one and be able to contextualise the gospel.

Re: 10 years training is too long and inflexible. I would say, in a formal context yes. Informally - no. I finished college at the end of 2003, and I still have much to learn, not just about ministry but about life, other people, and my self. In all truth I did not really know myself as a man till I was about 29 or 30. When it comes to full time minstry I believe that the informal training or ministry formation is a lifetime.

I suggest patience - It is a pain in the backside to acquire and it is even more painful to keep it once you have it.

Just to clarify a few things.

Every year there are people who do not have a degree at Moore College.

To say that MTS is virtually mandatory for admission to MTC is just wrong.

Last year at the Moore College gradutation there was a guy graduating who was over 80! (He said his study was a result of a mid-life crisis!)

There are also multiple people I know personally at college with several young kids - so I don’t think the $$ and kids issue can be used as a blanket ‘it can’t be done’. Fee-Help is a great thing!

David Clarke - 12 September 2008 12:00 PM

PS I am still looking for some enthusiastic church planters for our second church plant in outer western Sydney.  They would need to meet Mark Driscolls definition -that I would summarise as godly hard workers who are not expecting a church building or lots of cash.

Nice… sounds like a good plan David! =)

Will they have to have moved out of home? And holding down a job?

Where about is this plant?

Hi Pete, I’m glad to hear that you went on to church plant and a few more from college did also.

Phil I think theological training is good and is needed. I think there are also other dynamics at play also that would need to be covered. And say instead of doing Greek, replace it with sociology, where you learn to study the community around you assessing its needs, weaknesses and strengths.

Replace some subjects with more practical subjects such as church administration, funerals, counselling and leadership skills etc. The AOG do a degree and masters degree subject on church planting as well as host a church planters intensive conference. I attended this conference a while ago and its subject matter was much different to the BTH course I was doing at college and the subjects covered in the intensive were really needed to be looked at by any church planter

David Clarke, what’s your churches website address? I’ll give your church plant a plug on my blog. Is there an email address people can contact if they are interested? What location are you looking at?

I went to an interview with Peter Jensen to apply for Moore as a 19 year old with home made ratty dredlocks and a belly button length beard, being told by anyone and everyone that I was no chance of getting into college. The reasons given were, youre too young, too weird looking, too passionate, and you dont have a degree.

When I got to the office of Peter, he asked me and my wife some questions, and he then asked, do you have any questions. I asked what about my age, and my look, and my lack of ‘education’.

He promptly said, we dont look at those things, we just choose on the basis of the person, and that alone.

That blew me away! Sure, I went on to make mistakes in the early days, annoy people, get rebuked and learn my lessons, and I was acutely aware of not being that young punk who thought that he knew everything about everything, but I am thankful to God for the fact that Peter Jensen was willing to give me a shot at something I love, serving someone I love.

Great stuff - well done to the AB

David Clarke - 12 September 2008 12:00 PM

Some of the requirements of training work as a useful filter to deter some of those who perhaps are not suitable for full time ministry..

Perhaps in some cases. Some would argue that being a husband & father, raising a family, and working with a wide spectrum of people in the secular corporate world is just the background a church planter/pastor needs.

I have heard all too often people saying they couldn’t go to Moore because they can’t live without income for 4 years. The reality is…
-Fee help means there are not the fees to pay up front that there use to be

OK good, so that’s not extra money going OUT, but it still leaves you at zero.

-Students usually receive Austudy and payment for their student minister work, as well as support from working wives (where applicable) and friends.

Not sure what Austudy is these days, but it wasn’t much back in my Uni days. As for sending my wife out to work, she already has a full time+ job raising our three kids.

-A lifestyle change that involves living simply and frugally is good preparation for ministry where you should be an example for others of how to live in a materialistic world.

Yep sure. I’m all for modelling appropriate living.

-Learning to trust God, when all the money you want/need is not sitting in the bank is helpful in your spiritual growth.

This can be the case, however we are also called to provide for our families and not put God to the test, so there has to be some wisdom coming into play here.

In any case, it seems to me there are some structures coming our way (e.g. Acts 29) that recognise God’s call as well as “non-formal” theological qualifications as the necessary prerequisites for planting a church. No doubt those like myself will go this way, so the Anglican system can stay as is.

What would be helpful would be the likes of MTC supporting these types of church planters with part-time options to further their learning as Pastors.

Hi Jeff, outside my student wage, i get about 1100 a fortnight, and that’s with one child. with three it becomes a bit more i’m sure. The student wage on top of that is helpful also.

there has never been an easier time for people with families to study full time, and there a plenty at college who have a wife and three children. It is possible

if you have a mortgage it’d be harder though, i imagine.

To say that MTS is virtually mandatory for admission to MTC is just wrong.

I didn’t mean that. It seems that it is virtually mandatory for people who want to follow the Anglican ministry path. I know it is not *officially* mandatory. And of course lots of people enter college who have no intention of getting ordained, planting churches or even (sometimes) of become full-time ministers.

Craig Schwarze - 12 September 2008 08:53 PM

I didn’t mean that. It seems that it is virtually mandatory for people who want to follow the Anglican ministry path…

Sorry dude - I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick.  You don’t do MTS because you want to do Anglican ministry.  You do it for lots of reasons.  To taste what full time ministry is about.  To get hands on experience.  To be mentored.  To start new ministries.  Because you have no time to work any more.  Because you love people and you love the ministry you’re already involved in.  To see if you’re going to be an absolute disaster in the ministry field.

To do MTS because you want to go down the Anglican Ministry path is a dopy thing to do.

Of course - MTS does fulfill a lot of what Mark D. was talking about with regards to hands on ministry, entrepreneurialism, mentoring etc.  I’ve know many people over MTS who started new ministries (or been heavily involved in the start of a new ministry).  Tafe ministries, Uni ministries, School ministries, ISCF ministries, even new churches.

And of course, many MTS experiences are different - so your milage may vary.

Mike