Pete, what you’re really saying is that the current system is pretty much ok, maybe the students could do a little more. And “no change/minimal change” is a valid opinion which I respect.

My own feeling is that we could be doing much better. If we keep doing things the way we are, we will keep getting the same results. If we want different results, we need change…

I have just become aware of another form of Anglican church planting. 

A nearby Baptist church has been without a pastor since Christmas - and have just announced that an Anglican minister will be taking over in a few months. ( I imagine that they will be putting him though a ‘cleansing’ course to “de-Anglicanise” him first of his ‘wayward’ practices - and make sure he can swim in the baptismal pool.)

I think we need to harness the enthusiasm and energy of our 20-somethings better, especially in the area of church planting

I thoroughly agree with Craig on this point… (there may be biases in that as I fall directly in that category), from what I see of myself and my peers is that there are plenty of 20-somethings who are keen, gun ho, full of enthusiasm, energy, time, passion, aspirations etc… but at times are restricted to experiment, try things out and have the opportunities to learn (sometimes through the mistakes) by ‘having a go’.

Personally for myself, I have made many mistakes during my time with the little responsibilities assigned to me, but in hindsight, I believe they have probably been the most humbling learning experiences of my Christian life… I really thank God for those who were patient enough to endure through those times with me and allowed God to teach me some invaluable lessons.

I would love to see many more 20-somethings to be given opportunities to have a go. To fail, to get burnt, to understand their gifts, their limits and to work out whether or not they are cut out for it.

Not to say that the academic aspects were not helpful, as I also think that the single PTC course I did and the many SOCM classes I attended back at UNSW were invaluable in my understanding of the world from a Biblical, God Big picture perspective, which assisted in the consolidation of my ministry experience.

I think ultimately, ministry should be carried out with both in hand. A good solid Biblical foundation less we become unfaithful to God’s word, with practical aspects to teach us love and humility less we end up in that arrogant ivory tower of puffy knowledge.

However knowing myself and hearing from some of my peers, being in the 20-something category… we are just a bunch of people itching to sink our teeth into something real and challenging. That is just the nature of 20-somethings. However, the over controlling conditioning methods at times employed by senior clergy I think has meant that many do not really want to participate. And so… I think we lose a lot of them… who just end up being pew sitters, dead weight, conditioned churchmen… and those who may be still gun ho but not as Biblically founded, I have sadly witnessed many sinking into the corporate lifestyle and just lapping up the world.

I also understand the reasoning for the caution, as I suspect it would be dreadful to see those whom you have trained and invested much of your life into, crash and burn… it does get demoralising. But the over caution may also restrict those whom God has genuinely gifted to do ministry.

I personally would like to see more opportunities for young men to ‘have a go’. The execution of such a project however will most likely be extremely tricky.

I suspect that we will just have to embrace ourselves for whatever losses it may bring, be prepared to accept it, but also be prepared to trust that God might work wonders.

How about communal church planting without the one pastor mentality.

This is a comment from partial ignorance (due to having moved on into a new demographic!!) - I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Is it possible that many keen twenty-somethings want to run before they can crawl? Do they see the ‘romance’ and ‘glory’ of church planting and want to do that, rather than do the more ‘normal’ work of reading the Bible 1-1 with someone or helping start a small group or teaching Sunday school or scripture?.

One of the dangers of the church planting vibe which is around (which is great - we need to plant more churches) is that church planting can be seen to be the be all and end all of ministry. We need to remember that personal ministry, faithful serving in church and in the community without being ‘recognised’ is the real engine room of service.

I can see what you’re saying Pete.

I don’t know what this big thing about church planting is to be honest. I think the hype has come about from (P Diddy) Driscoll’s visit, the Acts 29 network, Connect09 and the upcoming Challenge conference… (isn’t it great we live in Sydney!)

Whether it is church planting, meeting 1-1 reading the Bible, serving at the sound desk etc… my point was merely in agreement with Craig that we really should tap more into the enthusiasm of 20-somethings for ministry… but not necessarily church planting. But while we’re on the topic of church planting… =)

It is a high bar to set I think… I think most will sadly fail and be discouraged.

However, it would be pretty awesome if some came good… and it would be nice to see something happen to facilitate these opportunities. But yes, I also agree and think over-zealousness may be hints of ulterior non-kingdom driven motives. Just some thoughts…

I know of some Bible colleges in Africa that an requirement for their students to pass is to have planted at least one church. I think there needs to be recognisence that some people will not be cut out to pastor a church, but are truly gifted to get one up and running, and once it has been established, allow a gifted pastor to do exactly that, move on and plant another one.

Pete, while MTC might be a great college, I have to ask how many churches have you planted? Also how many churches have the various graduates you studied with gone on to plant?  If the answer is none, perhaps its not doing the great job at preparing people to church plant that you suggest it is!

I agree that it would be good to release young people into ministry earlier than we do. Although isn’t this already happening to a large extent through MTS and similar programs?

But why should church planting be a young man’s responsibility? I think there needs to be more encouragement and support for people of all ages to get out of established churches and get involved in church planting - both clergy and laity. It is not just the oldies squashing the enthusiasm of youth but a more general lack of seeing church planting (and equipping for church planting) as a priority. The gifts of church planters and pastors are not identical, and in Sydney we tend to focus a lot more on training pastors for established churches than on equipping church planters.

More flexible training approaches would be good but I don’t see the current 2+4 system is necessarily a barrier to church planting. I think church planting is often more theologically demanding than work in an established parish since you are working with less structure and boundaries and probably doing more face to face evangelism. So what is needed is different but not less training.

Craig,

I’ve planted one church which I have now left to go on to the mission field (to be involved in theological education amongst pastors, student workers and church planters.)

Student ministers who worked with me along the way have also gone on to plant churches.

I am just quickly going through the list of my Moore College cohort. I can think of at least 5 who have planted churches and probably the same number who have ‘repotted’ (ie: gone to a very difficult area to try and revitalise). Others have started new student ministries on Campus and still others joined the staff team of relatively newly planted churches.

So - I actually think there is quite a good base there to start working from.

Phil you made some great points.

Would it be fair to say though that the theological teaching is more aimed towards established ministry / church pastoring?

@Craig B

Do you mean the current theological teaching in the colleges? Maybe, but I am not sure there would be much difference between what church planters need and what pastors in established churches need in the area of theological training. If there is a weakness here it is probably in not spending enough time thinking through the practical implications of our theology.

We often assume church planters and missionaries need less theological training but I think it is the opposite. Our theology faces its greatest challenges in evangelism, not when we are teaching people who are already onside. Also, in a pioneering situation you need to constantly make crucial decisions that may set the pattern (tradition) of how things are done for years to come. So it is vitally important to think theologically about those decisions and get it biblically right the first time.

Pete Sholl - 10 September 2008 10:52 PM

I’m interested as to why we’d limit the Church Planter’s training to 1 year? As a church planter I can definitely say that the best two pieces of training I received were a 2 year ministry apprenticeship, and a 4 year BD at Moore College.

The training I received at Moore College in theology, Biblical studies, ethics, pastoral issues and church history all provided me with an invaluable foundation when I was being faced with the vast range of questions faced by a church planter. It would unfortunate that in the enthusiasm to get out there and plant a church (which I am all for) we somehow undercut the depth of training that we so highly value.

I’d consider myself a candidate for church planting, but as a husband and father with 3 small children, 4 years of zero income will get me into serious issues with 1 Timothy 5:8.

I don’t have a BTheology, however, my training has been 20 years as a Christian serving under godly men who taught the bible.

If I figure out God is calling me to plant a church I will just have to go independent as the Anglican system just can’t handle guys like me.

Like Craig, I’m not saying the study is bad...it will just automatically rule out a bunch of guys.

I’d consider myself a candidate for church planting, but as a husband and father with 3 small children, 4 years of zero income will get me into serious issues with 1 Timothy 5:8.

I’d love to see people going into college younger. I was 23 when I started first year, no kids, therefore felt no anxiety at all about starting college $500 in debt with no visible means of support. Nor did my wife (who promptly got sick and stayed sick, so there went that income option).

I guess there is a Mt 6:33 argument for that being the case all the time and in all circumstances, but I do understand only too well how 3 kids changes your feelings about decision making. Which is a good argument for going young.

Driscoll’s order was marry-->have kids-->plant a church-->do theological training. Mine would be marry—or not, because single is a good option---->do MTS--->do theological training--->church plant.

If kids happen somewhere in there, that is good, assuming you took the married option. They are always a blessing, even if they don’t arrive according to our timetable.

I also think that the later you do theological training, the less valuable it is likely to be, because you are making up your mind on theological questions as you go through life and basically by the time you reach 30, you’ve already decided not just the big issues but lots of smaller ones and you are less willing and able to take on new ideas and ways of thinking.

In other words, just like Driscoll, my view is that everyone should do it exactly like me. But not to be too snarky, Driscoll’s use of Scripture was a good demonstration of how he should have done it my way.

I’d love to see people going into college younger. I was 23 when I started first year,

I agree Gordo, there seemed to be a bit of a push for a while toward people doing college older. Not sure if that is still the case or not. Why not allow people to enter college straight out of high school? Virtually every other bachelor degress allow that.

People are talking about the 2+4 system - 2 years MTS + 4 years college. But it is really 2+4+4 isn’t it, with 4 years as an assistant following college. It’s only after that that we are willing to give anyone serious responsibility.

And I think 10 years training is just too long and inflexible.

But this is an exciting conversation to be having, it really is. I really hope a few good church plants come out of the excitement of the last couple of weeks…

Craig,

I feel a little like you are arguing using stereotypes and inaccurate generalisations. To say that you need to have 10 years training before you have ‘any serious responsibility’ is just not right. There are many ministers who are less than 4 years out of college who, even though they might not be the rector, are looking after their own congregations and in positions of great responsibility.

I think we need to look beyond ‘structural recognition’ when it comes to responsibility.