Hi Leigh,

Leigh Hardwick - 06 September 2008 02:04 PM

Surely a godly Christian woman could have a good listen to her stepfather as an adult?

The jury’s always out on the “godly” bit, but I’m not saying I never listen to a word of advice my stepfather gives me. Hope I didn’t give that impression.

Theologically speaking, the stepfather is just as much a father as the biological one.

Hey, good point, but what if he tries to advise me against going to Tanzania on short term mission, like he did in 2006?

(To do him justice, he and my mother are going to help me financially in getting to France next year for the evangelistic outreach event Camp Amitiés. Paris ou Strasbourg, je n’ai pas encore decidé. But I’m still waiting on God to give the green light about going - it’s not until 2009 anyway.)

Biblically, you just didn’t have spinsters unless you were very unfortunate.

No, the respectable ones went out and became governesses if dads died or hadn’t enough money to support them

You just can’t put your fingers in your ears when it comes to the BIble.

May the LORD deal severely with me if that were ever my attitude!

“Take responsibility for your girls, until it is time to let them go to the responsibility of their husband - and be involved in their lives so they don’t run off and get into trouble”.

And my stepfather is involved. To an extent that occasionally I wish he’d ease off a bit!!

Wouldn’t it be wonderful to have a dad that was so concerned about you, and involved,.. .. ..

.. .. ..Sure, this won’t always go well, but that’s a sinful world for you.

I feel quite blessed that although my father has little expressed concern about my or my sisters, my stepfather is very concerned. I think he’s at least twice if not three times the man my father was, and I’m thankful to God for his well-meaning influence. Even if it annoys me at times.

Thank You Father for my earthly stepfather.. .. ..most of the time! (hehe)

TZ.

Tia
A very gracious reply to comments which seemed to me somewhat quick to jump to conclusions about you and the other female correspondents here.
Bob

Dannii, if you want to use OT rules as a guide to life, I think you’re undermining the new covenant offered by Jesus and are quite misguided about the role of the OT Law, but that’s your choice I guess.  I do wonder how you apply he myriad of OT rules.  Do you think Deut 28 & 29, or Numbers 5:11 should be a guide to life for today?

We are not under the Levitical law, and we are not under these passages. But these passages do teach us about God’s idea of headship, and I don’t believe anything in the NT changes that.

So while we’re not in a theocracy where husbands and fathers can overrule their wives and daughters on the oaths they make, I think a correct Biblical understanding of headship would see daughters under their father’s headship until they marry and are under their husbands.

Tia,

To contextualise this post, I will start with this comment - lay all your cards on the table before you provoke a response to which you have a retort. I know absolutely nothing about your personal situation, and I’m not trying to counsel you in your personal situation. This should be obvious that I’m making broad brushstrokes (not too dissimilar to how Jesus’ words come to us - Jesus never said “don’t listen to your stepfather!")…

Point by point - your stepdad counselled against short term mission. Maybe you just weren’t cut out for it at the time? Heck, I’d like to go into paid ministry down the track, but that’s not a given. I might not have what it takes, and I’m wise and humble enough to realise that these days. Maybe your stepdad knows more about Tanzania than you do? Maybe he believes you will be at particular risk over there? I don’t know. But his inability to convince you it wasn’t a good idea doesn’t mean he wasn’t wrong, true?

You say your stepdad is very concerned for you, and very supportive, to the point where you’d like him to back off. Sinful world, he’s doing the best he can… this doesn’t diminish what I said in my last post at all. It’s just that you don’t seem to like the control that comes with your stepdad being responsible. It’s your decision in the end, I’m just words on the page.

While we are getting OT, Exodus 20 “Honour your father and mother, so that you might live long (in the land??)” God surely realises that parents are people too, and are inclined to fail occasionally - sinful world - but he still gives the parents the keys until the man leaves the house, and it is being argued by Driscoll, that the parents have the keys until the woman leaves her parents to become a wife.

It’s a pretty backwards parent that is going to “enforce rules” when a woman is in her late 20s and 30s, but that inconvenience is hardly a reason to reject scripture. Yes?

Hi Leigh,

Leigh Hardwick - 06 September 2008 05:20 PM

But his inability to convince you it wasn’t a good idea doesn’t mean he wasn’t wrong, true?

Excuse me, but I never implied that my stepfather was wrong in his advice about Tanzania.

Are you sure you read that part of the post carefully through? Straight after I made that comment, I also noted that he’s happy to support me going to France.

Sinful world, he’s doing the best he can…

Yes, and if you noticed, I said I was thankful for his involvement. Didn’t you read that bit?

this doesn’t diminish what I said in my last post at all. It’s just that you don’t seem to like the control that comes with your stepdad being responsible.

I used the term ”occasionally”. Please do not place words in my mouth or misread or misunderstand what I said in my last post.

The main reason I occasionally find it difficult is that between the ages of 11 and 25, I had no father figure of any kind, no father figure to either relate to or answer to for 14 crucial years of my life (including my teens and early twenties).

As a result, I grew up used to answering to the “woman of the house”, so getting a father figure so suddenly at age 26 took just a little bit more getting used to than you might expect. I hope you don’t think that’s unreasonable.

(Blame my father for walking out on my mother and devastating the family. I did mention my father committed adultery, didn’t I? Forsook the wife of his youth - as Malachi put it.)

It doesn’t mean I’m not thankful for my stepfather. Which is what I said at the end of my last post. Did you actually read it through to the very last word, or only skim it then reply without thinking much?

While we are getting OT, Exodus 20 “Honour your father and mother, so that you might live long (in the land??)” God surely realises that parents are people too, and are inclined to fail occasionally - sinful world - but he still gives the parents the keys until the man leaves the house, and it is being argued by Driscoll, that the parents have the keys until the woman leaves her parents to become a wife.

I forgot to add one qualifying statement: I do not live with my mother & stepfather. Since my mother married in December 2003, she moved out of living with me, and moved in with him to a house he was already living in (which they had jointly paid for before they married and set up home together). So they live at their own property (a reasonable walking distance in good weather), and I live in my mother’s house as a tenant, and pay her rent as my landlady, which I’ve done since I started teaching in January 2003.

It’s a pretty backwards parent that is going to “enforce rules” when a woman is in her late 20s and 30s, but that inconvenience is hardly a reason to reject scripture. Yes?

Sounds like you are accusing me of rejecting scripture. Yes?

In fact:

It sounds as if you think I am a prominent rejector of Scripture, esp. as regards the command to honour parents.

I would like to assure you that I am not, so I would really appreciate it if you calmed down; this is because I feel as if you are attacking me without taking the time to ascertain what I’m really like.

If you sat down with me in person for five minutes and listened to what I said - and I invite this if you (a) live in Sydney and (b) it is appropriate for you in your situation in life to do so (though I’m not convinced it may be appropriate) - I think you would find I am actually much more submissive to Scriptural commands than you seem to be assuming of me from just skim-reading my posted comments on this particular discussion thread.

Alternatively, I would suggest that you carefully read through and study all Bible-related posts I have made in the last six months before you conclude that I am rejecting any of the Scriptures. To do this you can easily go to my SA profile by clicking on my name, then look for the link that says “View all posts by this member” and click on that.

I apologise profusely if I sound either curt or overly defensive - but I am not comfortable with the fact that you seem to be reacting to Dannii, and Melinda, and myself, as if we were not prepared to take what the Bible says seriously.

This is a discussion forum.

It is not a place just to have a go at someone whom you think is wrong - unless you have taken the time to really find out in depth, and in proper context, what his/her attitude to Scripture actually is.

Please would you make sure that you have looked carefully at what we have said before you jump to conclusions about what any of us do or do not believe about the authority of Scripture. On all topics relating to this discussion thread.

I quote for your convenience the last two paragraphs of my previous post, just in case you skipped over them - which it feels like you did:

Tia Zheng - 06 September 2008 02:20 PM

I feel quite blessed that although my father has little expressed concern about my or my sisters, my stepfather is very concerned. I think he’s at least twice if not three times the man my father was, and I’m thankful to God for his well-meaning influence. Even if it annoys me at times.

Thank You Father for my earthly stepfather.. .. ..most of the time! (hehe)

TZ.

Please note the inclusion of words such as “blessed” and “thankful”.

Regards,
Tia Zheng.

I have tried to walk away from this thread but I can’t because I think there are such serious errors being touted here that they are leading people into sin.

1. God’s word is being misused.

2. God’s word is being misused to subrogate* the obligation to self-determination and the duities and responsibilties before God and towards our fellowman of a group of human beings.

So far we have Danni and Leigh suggesting that the bible commands unmarried adult women to be under the authority of their father.  Leigh is suggesting that to believe otherwise is to

put your fingers in your ears when it comes to the BIble.

So far the biblical support for Danni and Leigh’s positon has been scant despite the rhetorical appeals to “the bible “ or “biblical understanding” . Danni has offered Numbers 30.

Numbers 30 is a chapter about holding to vows that one has made.  Danni suggests that it [does]

teach us about God’s idea of headship,

These verses release a married woman or young women still living in her father’s house from being held responsible by God for a vow that she makes if her husband or father forbids her from keeping the pledge, Note even in the patriachal times in which it was written it does not say that the women in question must ask their husband/father’s permission to make a vow, merely that “the Lord will release her because her father has forbidden her’.  This is just God being merciful in a sinful world so that the woman in question does not have to face displeasing God or her earthly master (which in biblical times, was what husbands and fathers were).

It is also interesting to note that verse 9 says “Any vow or obligation made by a widow or divorced woman will be binding on her.” If one was to try to rely on Num 30 to support a view on the headship of unmarried women,surely the status of a financially independent, living outside the parental home spinster is more akin to a widow or divorced woman than a young daughter living at home, The independent spinster has to act autonomously, she can choose to seek advice etc but she is responsible for her own fate. SHe may choose to heed the advice of her father (as may an adult son or married son or daughter) and it may be the most prudent course of action but she is not obliged to do so by God’s word.

Leigh says

While we are getting OT, Exodus 20 “Honour your father and mother, so that you might live long (in the land??)” ... but he still gives the parents the keys until the man leaves the house, and it is being argued by Driscoll, that the parents have the keys until the woman leaves her parents to become a wife

This is simply a misuse of scripture.  Honour your father and mother is a command given to all people regardless of gender.  Honouring is not the same as submitting to or being under the authority of , even if it was used in this way, there is no difference between gender either in terms of the parent (mother/father) or progeny (son/daughter) so to twist this verse to argue for male headship in general or particularly as the basis for adult women being under the authority of their father is, I repeat a misuse of God’s word..  In biblical times, where there was no social security, it mainly meant looking after your parents in their old age.  Jesus uses the expression in this way in Matt 15:3-7.

Finally as an aside

Leigh asks TIa

Wouldn’t it be wonderful to have a dad that was so concerned about you, and involved, as to be able to provide a suitable male husband replacement until someone asked for your hand?

NO!  To confuse, on any level at all , the role of a father with that of a husband is cause for major concern.

* Please note that this is a carefully chosen word and I am not talking about the need for a minor to obey their parents, nor about a wife submitting to her husband.  These are separate issues and it is erroneous to conflate them with the notion of an adult woman’s responsibilities to her father.

Very well said, Melinda! I agree entirely.

Tia Zheng - 06 September 2008 10:50 PM

I apologise profusely if I sound either curt or overly defensive - but I am not comfortable with the fact that you seem to be reacting to Dannii, and Melinda, and myself, as if we were not prepared to take what the Bible says seriously.

No apology necessary at all. The internet is ALWAYS a bad place to have “emotional” discussions. In an unusual twist, I communicate almost exclusively with my wife face to face. Phone conversations and emails are rare and very “to the point”. I knew that my post had to appear aggressive, but I don’t believe in apologising for my interpretation of the Bible. We have the same saviour, same god, same spirit, and if things get heated as we work out the best way to live according to Jesus, well, so be it. I’ve got thick skin.

Ultimately, our personal situations are just that. Unique representations of a general trend in humanity. Ultimately, the main calling cards of Christianity are a desire to live according to God’s ways, and a humble heart to accept that sometimes we need to change. If I provoke thought, then I’m successful.

I’m out of this one. Let me know how you went with your stepdad in Heaven :)