Hi John,
I think God limits His own word that way… that the bible is ‘enough’ for us to be ready for service. 2 Tim 3:16

“Sufficiency of the Scriptures” and all that. It’s all tied into Jesus Himself being the eternal Word, who was revealed to us, and who’s teaching and actions were recorded for us by God’s own Spirit writing through the eyewitnesses, apostles, etc.

Any study of God’s word in God’s word holds these dull pages to be anything but… they’re loaded with the ‘dynamite’ of God’s Spirit which can cut like a knife through our motives, lack of repentance, and religious fakery.

(Edited for an attempt at clarity)

Typos or not, we get the gist.

Dannii, you are right to recognise that we should be very careful in deciding whether God has spoken to us in any specific situation.  But I believe that God has the capacity, in some situations, to bring the words of others alive as we read them so that they convey to us God’s word for us in that situation.  This is very much the work of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction about things.

The way I exercise that care you speak of is to talk to others in my community of faith to see if they agree that I have reasonably discerned a movement of God in a particular situation.  The provide me with a reality check that ensures that I am correctly tuning in to God’s activity in my life - God’s Word for me.

In saying that God can speak to us through other agencies than the written word of Scripture, I am not seeking to diminish its place or authority, just acknowledging that we can have a wider experience of God’s Word as we journey in the faith.

Dave,

I don’t regard the reading of the Bible as dealing with dull pages.  It is indeed my experience that the reading of the stories therein is a living and dynamic experience, too.  My reading of the Prodigal Son story today will speak to me in a different way than it did when I used it for my meditations 10 years ago.  The stories a living and dynamic - “sharper than a two-edged sword” someone once described it.

My view is not a product, either, of a restlessnes for something more, of a sense of insufficiency in my view of the Scriptures; rather simply a reflection on my experience of the faith journey of more than 50 years.

Yes, in one sense I think I can see that reading a passage one year might have new insights than, say, when I was younger. But that doesn’t mean the passage itself changes.

My concern is that when my focus changes to my ‘experience’ of the passage, it could just be another way of saying “What does the bible mean… to me?” Not, “What did it mean to the original audience, what part of the bible is it in, where does it fit in the unfolding plan of God, is it pre-Jesus or post-Jesus, and what does it tell us about Jesus, and God, and God’s work in history, and only then asking what are the take away messages for all Christians everywhere, including my situation… and now what does it mean for me?”

The exegetical task is, as you imply with the long list of questions, a never-ending one.

The answers to all but the last question could seem to lead to a single definitive and objective statement of what a passage means.  But even there, scholarly techniques have changed over the years leading to different conclusions - indeed theological fashions, so to speak, have led people to draw different conclusions from time to time.

However, the answer to the last question will always be an existential one because “What it means for me” is always fashioned through the influences of our recent experiences and circumstances.  If the question was “What it means TO me?” then the answer might be somewhat predictable regardless of when in our lives we were looking at a passage, but FOR is an entirely subjective term.  This is dynamic and ever-changing and is one of the marvels to me of the spiritual life in God.  Because of it I can always rely on God to speak into my circumstances.

This is not to say that the passage changes, but that God, through the power of the Spirit, is able to bring the words to life in new ways that speak into our changed circumstances and in that way being the Word of God. 

I don’t find this dynamic view in any way diminishes the importance of the stories as posited in Scripture.

The message is unchanging. I don’t see the words in my bible shifting around. The message is the same unchanging message that was delivered ‘once to the saints’ and is to be handed down in an unchanging format. We only receive it correctly when we receive it as the message “TO” us, especially when it involves uncomfortable home truths. Now, how we subjectively experience these unchanging truths to us may change over time, but that’s more about our circumstances than God zapping us with different information. God’s Spirit uses God’s word to teach us unchanging truths — and will convict us according to how we measure up against that word. I see nothing about the work of the Spirit and work of the word being separated.

Trying a subjective ‘death of the author’ post-modernist “What does it mean for me?” approach can only guarantee that we end up reading what we want to hear.

Here’s more on this by the current head of Moore Theological college, John Woodhouse.

Well Dave, it seems you like swimming around in concrete.  I much prefer the freedom and light of the Spirit that keeps my life and faith deeply rooted and connected to a living and dynamic God.

John Clapton - 06 September 2008 12:25 PM

Well Dave, it seems you like swimming around in concrete.  I much prefer the freedom and light of the Spirit that keeps my life and faith deeply rooted and connected to a living and dynamic God.

An unkind and misguided caricature John.  Not what we usually see from you.
Bob

I was not being intentionally disrespectful, Bob.  It is just that I do believe the word of God is much more dynamic and life-giving than seems to be the case in the view of God’s Word as described by Dave.

The words on the page of Scripture are the only things that are unchanging so far as the Word of God is concerned and that’s as should be.  The dynamic bit is in the way we seek to distill meaning from them, in the work of the Holy Spirit as we read them, and the influence of a whole lot of existential factors that shape what we take from those words as to ther meaning FOR me today.

I want then to allow for the possibility that God reveals his Word to us in many more things and ways than the words of Scripture.  How often do we read in the Psalms that people see or know the Word of God in ways that are clearly not derived from reading the Torah, for example?  I accept that there are some causes for anxiety in this aspect of God’s Word, but as I said above, that is where the need to discern the Word in the context of the Community of Faith is so important.  If God can only speak to us within the limited range of words in the pages of the Bible then God is much much smaller than I imagined and understood from my theological studies and my experience of the faith.

John wrote;

If God can only speak to us within the limited range of words in the pages of the Bible then God is much much smaller than I imagined and understood from my theological studies and my experience of the faith.

John the Bible tells us that there are basically two ways God speaks to us today.  Through general revelation;

Romans 1:20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

And through scripture;

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

There is no more revelation to be had.

The fact that this would change your view of God is good because it would be a more accurate view of God.  You may think this is restricting God’s abilities or making Him less personal.  This is not the case.  God is very personal but He is also very wise because He knows how easily we can be lead astray.  So for our good he has told us where he reveals Himself, if we are seeking His voice else where our point of reference as to whether it is from God or not has got to be scripture.  Not as you say;

The way I exercise that care you speak of is to talk to others in my community of faith to see if they agree that I have reasonably discerned a movement of God in a particular situation.

People at church are not a reference point for the voice of God, they are no more reliable than you.  Godly, wise people at church would refer you to scripture not to their opinion.

Thax <><

Well, like I said Thax, my experience of the faith is that God speaks his word to me in many more ways than that.  I don’t regard this as unusual.  Most people, if they will admit it, can identify times when they have sensed the Word of God from other than those two sources of revelation you limit God to.

Swimming in concrete? No mate, more like swimming through flashing lazers, or running the wrong way in a “fixed bayonets” parade at the Edinburgh military tattoo. The bible is Sharp, it is Light, it is the voice of the living God, it is God-breathed, it is Spirit filled, it is the aroma of life and the scent of death, it is a flashing dazzling blinding revelation that I sometimes cannot open for fear of what I’ll find there.

Yet ultimately, ‘my sheep hear my voice’ and I’ll dare to pick it up and listen again to Jesus words calling to me across the centuries. Where else have we to go, for these are the words of eternal life? Just because they are ‘fixed’ in objective meaning does not mean they’re always comfortable in subjective experience, or even encountered the same way twice.

Hey Dave, Good one. I’m with you on this one Hurray!

John,

Just a question does the Word of God speaking to you sometimes say things dead set against the plain reading of Scripture?

I am not saying this dynamic experience of the Word of God is in any way conflicted with the plain reading of Scriptures, I am simply pressing the point that there has to be room for a larger view in the idea of The Word of God than that which is limited to the written words of Scripture.  Indeed there are references in Scripture to the Word of the Lord that is something other than what was written.  Revelation is a dynamic thing that did not end with the death of the Apostles.

Cool — then my next gospel will be “The Revelation of the Green”, a clearer call to peak oil and global warming mitigation than “Love thy neighbour.” And that’s just my hobby horses… wait until some of my mates into economics, politics, art, culture, and music get started.