In the Burn Your Plastic Jesus thread Dannii (Willis) inquired about the version of ‘Amazing Grace’ sung there.  In that context he made the following observation:

I don’t mind the chorus and new music, but leaving out that verse was a mistake. I always ask to add it back in. Newton may have written all the verses, but there’s a reason the common verses are common. “You are forever mine” is a much weaker ending!

The offending words Dannii refers to are in fact an addition to the last verse of John Newton’s hymn, the words of which are:

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who called me here below,
Will be forever mine.

The words which Dannii laments being left out are:

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.

These words were written by an unknown author, and first appeared in 1790 or earlier, as part of the hymn ‘Jerusalem, my happy home’ [ let’s all sing that one together now! :-) ] Wikipedia notes that the words also appeared in Harriet Beecher Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin, and offers this comment about these words:

Despite its relatively poor mesh with the rest of the hymn (the change from “I” to “we,” change of subject, no reference for “there"), a form of this stanza became common as part of Amazing Grace in hymnals in the early twentieth century, due in large part to the influential hymnodist and publisher Edwin Othello Excell.

While like Dannii I enjoy singing the extra verse very much, I can’t agree with his assessment of Newton’s original last verse, which if anything is stronger, as it places the joy of being in God’s presence against the backdrop of the judgement of God and the end of all things, alluding I think to passages like 2 Peter 3:10-13 (although Peter doesn’t mention snow!) and Joel 2:30-31.

For my own part, I only discovered verse 4 in later years, and am disappointed that it is left out of many hymnals/songbooks.  What a great comfort those words are!

Any other observations on this or other great hymns?

I always thought there was only 4 verses, never knew Newton didn’t write the “fourth”, and had no odea about the others!  A lot of the older hymns are great, they are spot on theologically and can teach a congregation much when sung regularly.  Especially my favourite, And Can It Be - thoroughly biblical and a great tune.  Far more biblical than a lot (but by no means all) of the modern choruses pervading all services now.

Kathryn Roach - 06 September 2008 07:04 AM

A lot of the older hymns are great, they are spot on theologically and can teach a congregation much when sung regularly.  Especially my favourite, And Can It Be - thoroughly biblical and a great tune.

Interestingly on that score (pardon the pun) there is some controversy among theologians about the final line in verse 1 of And Can It Be -

that thou my God shouldst die for me.

Some feel that it is inaccurate to speak of God dying, and that Jesus only died in his human nature.  For my part, I think that this is to be guilty of:
1 Imposing a dubious and potentially dangerous dichotomy between Jesus’ two natures, as if we can allocate different actions to one nature or the other; and
2 Pressing Wesley’s lyrics beyond their intent.  Surely he was not making a fine theological point about the death of God, but rather simply marvelling that Jesus went to the cross for us!

Bob Cameron - 06 September 2008 08:13 AM

Interestingly on that score (pardon the pun) there is some controversy among theologians about the final line in verse 1 of And Can It Be -

that thou my God shouldst die for me.

Some feel that it is inaccurate to speak of God dying, and that Jesus only died in his human nature.  For my part, I think that this is to be guilty of:
1 Imposing a dubious and potentially dangerous dichotomy between Jesus’ two natures, as if we can allocate different actions to one nature or the other; and
2 Pressing Wesley’s lyrics beyond their intent.  Surely he was not making a fine theological point about the death of God, but rather simply marvelling that Jesus went to the cross for us!

Hi Bob,

I realise you are not agreeing with the unnamed “theologians” but as you say their view is potentially dangerous, and mistaken.

That line of Wesley’s hymn is an orthodox and beautiful poetic summary of the truth.

It seems that some people would not know poetry if they fell over it!

Wesley’s words can be seen as encapsulating in a poetic lyric a core truth from:

Philippians 2:5-11:
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
[NIV translation of a passage that may be a hymn itself from the apostolic period]

and/or:

The second section of the Nicene Creed:
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
....
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
.....
[ICET translation, my bold]

Grace & peace,
Terry

Ah, the old traditional hymns.. .. ..those were the days when they were all that my first church sang. Thank God that Cathedral at least keeps them in the repertoire - apart from my beloved Sunday School, that’s why I keep going!

Bob Cameron - 06 September 2008 03:06 AM

What a great comfort those words are!

Any other observations on this or other great hymns?

I really like the original non-modern final verse of ”Amazing Grace”, too.

That whole shift from “me and my relationship with God” to “all of US together and our relationship with God” is something I feel is often quite unfairly left out of many modern song lyrics.

I say this because WE together are the body and the bride of Christ - according to the 21st chapter of REVELATION, verses 1-4 - and will be together that great multitude of the 7th chapter, verses 9-10.

It won’t just be “God is forever mine” (as the newer modified lyrics put it).

Instead, it will be “God is OURS and salvation belongs to Him” (much closer to John Newton’s last verse)!

You can see why I prefer the traditional John Newton lyrics. Hallelujah indeed!

TZ.

Agreed Terry.  I also think that the position in question stumbles over texts like Revelation 1:17-18:
“Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades [emphasis added].
Here Jesus is speaking as the heavenly Lord.  He doesn’t say “my human nature underwent death” (to which lovers of language will say, “thank goodness!"), or some other such qualified statement, but simply “I died”.  It seems futile to me to dry and treat Jesus, God and man, as anything other than a single entity.  This is not to say that theologians who want to assert that God cannot die (by his very nature) don’t have a point - but simply that the language of Wesley is consistent with the Bible (and no surprises there either!).

Ahh so the traditional last verse isn’t his? I don’t think that matters much.

“Will be forever mine.” is still weak, I feel it should be something more like “I am forever his.”

I much prefer ending on a corporate verse. And if you don’t want to leave out the judgement, that verse could be inserted in the middle.

Also, there is a reference for “there”, it’s refering to “home” in the verse before (if it’s ordered in the normal four verses way.)

Tia
I think you’ve missed the point about Amazing Grace.  The words,
“But God, who called me here below,
Will be forever mine”
ARE John Newton’s original words, whereas the words,
“When we’ve been here . . . etc”
are NOT.

Now I’m with you completely about the value of a communal or corporate emphasis in our songs.  But there is strong Biblical precedent for individual delight in God as well - just look at the psalms, or at some of Paul’s outbursts of personal praise.

I don’t think we need to force John Newton’s wonderful hymn to fit into a particular set of criteria of good hymns.  If sometimes we sing the later added last verse (which, again, I also love) great!  If at other times we sing Newton’s last verse, great!  I rejoice that we will be gathered round God’s throne TOGETHER; and I rejoice that God is MY father.  These truths are not in competition with each other.

Regards,

Bob

Oops, I stand corrected. About who wrote what.

I still feel that modern song lyrics can underemphasise the collective aspect of our relationship with God. That’s what I was getting out.

And now I’m off to a baby shower. Amid the showers that are already taking place in Sydney. Drip, drip drip.

TZ.

OK, if we have some faults with And Can It Be, how about O For A Thousand Tongues - surely you people aren’t going to burst my theological bubble with regards to all my favourite hymns are you?

I still like listening to the christian music I have from the 80s (yes, showing my age I know) but I used to really enjoy the music and more importantly the lyrics, until I was in a position in later life to gain a much deeper appreciation of various theological and doctrinal issues, and, sadly, discovered that my favourite band were a little skewed when it came to biblical truths.  I still love listening to them, but it’s now tinged with sadness as I see the extent of the mistakes in their lyrics, particularly arminianism, and how it also clouded my own understanding of God in some ways for a number of years.  *sigh* So don’t rock my little boat when it comes to the hymns I know too!

Kathryn Roach - 06 September 2008 03:40 PM

OK, if we have some faults with And Can It Be, how about O For A Thousand Tongues - surely you people aren’t going to burst my theological bubble with regards to all my favourite hymns are you?

Hi Kathryn,
For the present at least, I think Bob and I have repelled the critics from And Can It Be. 8-)
Grace & peace,
Terry

Terry Gallagher - 06 September 2008 03:53 PM

Kathryn Roach - 06 September 2008 03:40 PM

OK, if we have some faults with And Can It Be, how about O For A Thousand Tongues - surely you people aren’t going to burst my theological bubble with regards to all my favourite hymns are you?

Hi Kathryn,
For the present at least, I think Bob and I have repelled the critics from And Can It Be. 8-)
Grace & peace,
Terry

Amen to that!  You go ahead Kathryn and sing it with all your heart, and we’ll be singing it too.
Bob