In the interview, Driscoll says that he believes we should be focusing on reaching young men in the cities. Those who have followed him over the years will know this is one of his common themes.

So, what does “Urban Man Church” look like? Should it look like anything? Or do we just “preach the gospel” and not worry about the cultural stuff? Is it a trap to try and tailor church for urban areas, or for guys?

Is it a trap to tailor church to those who work in the media, and who are afflicted with the malaise of postmodernism?  I’d say not, which I suuspect answers the question you posed above.

From a quick survey I’ve just taken (2 participants) young urban men
don’t like :

responsibilty
hypocrisy in the church “paedophiles give it a bad rap”
highly structured, repetitive services
modern church music
pressure to belong
rules
authoritarianism
being made to feel guilty
overfriendly inquisitors
do like:

money
hanging out with friends (very important)
having time for leisure
real humour at church
interesting visuals at church
something to do when at church

Urban Man Church might be cool, casual, colorful, easygoing, busy,transparent (leaders), humourous, unpressured

Hi Alice - the “don’t like responsibility” is the crux of the problem with many men in church life these days.  What part of “leader” is it they’re failing to comprehend?  Having responsibilites is part of their God-given role, and for them to turn their nose up at it and say it’s not for them is quite frankly bordering on the heretical in my view.  Perhaps you might pass that along to your survey participants! 

(not intending to shoot the messenger - just frustrated as the contents of the messengers suvey results)

Katherine, agreed!
How to teach responsibility? It has to start in childhood, and today’s younger generations may have been over-parented.

On the other hand, what real opportunities are there for young men to exercise “leadership” in the Church? What would you like to see them doing?

So, what does “Urban Man Church” look like?

Fight club.

Leading bible study groups, leading prayer triplets, leading organisation of men’s outreach events regularly, taking responsibility to disciple younger men in the congregation (there’s always someone younger than you even if you’re only a late teenager or in your early 20s), organising social nights which appeal to men, organising weekend activities which appeal to men and which can be used for pre-evangelism, praying with the minister and providing a support to him - there’s a myriad of leadership roles available for men of all ages and stages of faith.  Saying “there’s no roles because the one up front has been taken and there’s nothing else” is a cop out of the largest degree.

And Dave L I’m not “young man bashing”, just critiquing the survey results posted by Alice.  I’m not saying all (young) men are like this - just saying those who think like that ought to take a good long hard look at themselves and consider where they actually stand in their relationship with God and with their brothers and sisters in the church immediately around them.

As a young urban man perhaps I’m allowed to comment… I would like the church to take Ephesians 6:12 a bit more seriously.

How many of us feel like we’re engaged in a struggle against the rulers, authorities and cosmic powers over this present darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places?

Jesus said that he would build his Chuch upon Peter, and that “the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” (Matt 17:5). I can think of 2 ways of interpreting this metaphor:
1) The church is a city, besieged by the armies of hell/hades.
2) The church is God’s ‘army’, and the gates of hades will not be able to resist it.

I find the second more persuasive because of the reference to the ‘gates’ of hell (ie you attack a city by breaking through its gates), and because I think it’s more consistent with other passages like Colossians 2:13-15 and Matt. 28:18.

Thus I agree with statements like “Satan should be wondering where the church will strike him next” and disagree with statements like “The church should be wondering where Satan will strike it next.”

In short, tell the young men that there’s a battle going on, and that they can either
A) Get involved with the occult, and thus the losing side.
B) Sit back and do nothing.
C) Become part of God’s team and participate in the spiritual battle Paul talks about.

But what would I know… I’m just a young urban man with no formal theological training…

So, what does “Urban Man Church” look like?

Fight club.

How about a rugged competition of ‘Bible verses at 20 paces’ over morning tea - sorry, that should read ‘over the BBQ’.

In short, tell the young men that there’s a battle going on, and that they can either
A) Get involved with the occult, and thus the losing side.
B) Sit back and do nothing.
C) Become part of God’s team and participate in the spiritual battle Paul talks about.

And equip them with the armour of God in accordance with Ephesians 6:

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armour of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Dannii Willis - 03 September 2008 12:31 AM

So, what does “Urban Man Church” look like?

Fight club.

First rule of Urban Man Church: Don’t talk about Urban Man Church.

Second rule of Urban Man Church: Don’t talk about Urban Man Church.

The issue begins with Urban Man Evangelism, and as some of the other contributors have noted, we need to strip backthe nice mid-20th century churches we have set up as a cross between a meeting of the Country Womens Association and Rotary and make them what they truly are - groups of God’s soldiers and servants in a world where we are strangers in a strange land.

James

James Flavin - 03 September 2008 11:10 AM

we need to strip backthe nice mid-20th century churches we have set up as a cross between a meeting of the Country Womens Association and Rotary and make them what they truly are - groups of God’s soldiers and servants in a world where we are strangers in a strange land.

Amen to that! However, it doesn’t get us closer to how we should ‘do church’.

Picking up on something Luke said in another thread about boring sermons, I think we have to make teaching interactive rather than simply a lecture. We have to get away from the current model that I might caricature as “pack as much Bible into them as possible because they mightn’t open it themselves during the week”.

I wonder if sermons should start with the problem/needs and work towards solutions rather than here’s the solution now lets see how/if it applies to us. Also, sermons should focus much more on the Missional church (ie what it really means to live out our Christian faith both within the local church and in the wider community) and looking at how the Bible addresses our cultural context. (Eg a sermon series on Loving in Community - what does it mean? how do we fit it into our already packed lives? won’t we just run out of steam? what’s the driving force? what will it look like? how/where do we start?) We need to rethink expository preaching - I’m not saying get rid of it, but it isn’t (generally) the best way to encourage the congregation.

Also, with the advent of the Internet, it’d be great to be encouraged to email/post online suggestions/questions that congregation members want discussed in upcoming sermon series. Likewise, emailing/posting follow up questions after sermons would allow the preacher to further clarify issues raised in previous weeks. That way, the congregation would become more involved in the sermons, with some sense of ownership of its content and might also promote more after church discussion of the sermons and more Bible reading mid-week too.

Angus Johnson - 03 September 2008 11:56 AM

James Flavin - 03 September 2008 11:10 AM

we need to strip backthe nice mid-20th century churches we have set up as a cross between a meeting of the Country Womens Association and Rotary and make them what they truly are - groups of God’s soldiers and servants in a world where we are strangers in a strange land.

Amen to that! However, it doesn’t get us closer to how we should ‘do church’.

Au contraire Angus, it totally defines the principles of Church-doing.

If we are soldiers we acknowledge we are in a battle and sometimes we are going to get hurt.

If we are servants we acknowledge there are more important issues away from our careers, cars, houses, wealth and X-Boxes where we need to spend out time and money.

If we are strangers in a strange land we want ot make our public gatherings as welcoming for the inhabitants of this strange land so they may understand the gospel that leads to our difference.

Keeping these things in mind moves us away from the common misconceptions of church - church as concert, church as entertainment, church as social club, church as a one hour, once a week event - to what church really is: a group of God’s people trying to bring change to God’s world in ourselves through the transforming power of the gospel and in the wider world by the converting power of the gospel.

How does that manifest in a particular demographic depends on local factors, but always must include an exhortation to change from the Word, encouragment between the soldiers & servants and an opportunity for outsiders to hear of the power of God.

James

Given that all Sydney churches are led by urban men surely these leaders might have some ideas on what an urban man church should look like? What would the messiah from Mars Hill know that the 100s of clergy don’t?

the “don’t like responsibility” is the crux of the problem with many men in church life these days.  What part of “leader” is it they’re failing to comprehend?  Having responsibilites is part of their God-given role, and for them to turn their nose up at it and say it’s not for them is quite frankly bordering on the heretical in my view.  Perhaps you might pass that along to your survey participants

Therein seems to lie a paradox in analysis of leadership. Wasn’t it you Kathryn who said that women are to be submissive helpers in another thread?  How do you reconcile telling men what they must do and that they’re heretical with submission? If tmen don’t want to take responsiblitliy then why shouldn’t women submit to that, how can you pick and choose when to submit and when not to, where do you draw the line?

As another aside, I have heard it said that women’s insistance that their role is to be a helper is another form of shirking the responsibility that is clearly called for in the bible, eg to go and make disciples of all nations.

Hi Melinda - submission yes, healthy debate, also yes!  Women are to be helpers, and not leaders, but not being a leader does not ipso facto exclude any capacity for commentary and comment.  A lack of scope for comment leads to Luke’s concern of women being “held down”, where they are truly oppressed. 

I am on the admin committee (effectively parish council) of my church, and we have extensive debates about issues which relate to ministry matters.  I put in my two cents worth, knowing my minister will take it into consideration, and then I follow and support whatever decision he makes, even if it’s contrary to what I put forward.  Being-a-helper-not-leader doesn’t mean you can’t put forward your own views for consideration and critique. 

Now, back onto this thread, how would urban man church fit in with little old lady church, or married mum with kids church, or older widower church - surely church is for a family, the family of God.  Is there no place in urban man church for those who aren’t urban young men?  Are they to be an exclusive army of participants who do not interact with the “boring” part of the body of christ?  Where does pandering to the whims of urban young men, by throwing out exegetical bible teaching and the buiding up of the body of God by verbal interaction, end and skewing the gospel start?

I started out in this thread challenging Craig on his church’s focus on the media - yet they have a large membership with nothing to do with media, which included me, a non-media person, for a few years before I moved to Perth.  If urban man church isn’t to become a ghetto it’s got to reflect the demographics of the society it’s in as well as God’s family, it can’t just be urban men and no one else, I don’t think - which means urban young men have to accept there’s elements of church which they won’t like but have to accept as part of being in God’s family.  Just as I have to accept married people with kids and being on the creche roster is part of being in my church, much as I dislike that and would prefer to be in single-women-in-their-30s-never-married-professionally-qualified-post-graduate-educated-owns-cats-but-not-dogs church.

Kathryn said -

. . . would prefer to be in single-women-in-their-30s-never-married-professionally-qualified-post-graduate-educated-owns-cats-but-not-dogs church.

Now there’s a church which would attract Urban Man!

If urban man church isn’t to become a ghetto it’s got to reflect the demographics of the society it’s in as well as God’s family, it can’t just be urban men and no one else, I don’t think - which means urban young men have to accept there’s elements of church which they won’t like but have to accept as part of being in God’s family. 

I think if we created a church that young urban men flocked to, the girls would come as well. That’s part of Driscoll’s thesis - get the young men and you get everyone…