Georgina Barratt-See - 01 September 2008 07:32 PM

Am I just uber-sensitive, or is anyone else offended by the wording of “hot chicks” when talking about Christian sisters?

Hi Georgina, I strongly agree the term is inappropriate and insensitive. The term as it is used in this thread relates to the Sandeman’s column where he was quoting another person using it, so really we should be using the term in quotes, ie ‘hot chicks’, lest readers make the mistake of thinking this is how we refer to single sisters in our Christian community.

I think, then, it should not have been used at all. The whole idea that only the “hot chicks” are attractive is worldly and not biblical. And the idea that “hot chicks” should be able to get guys to church is horrible - I’m sorry, but if you’re advertising church as somewhere to get hot chicks, even by repeating comments someone else has said, then you’re completely lacking respect for all the faithful Christian sisters and reducing them to what the world sees. I don’t like this article. I’m sorry, but I don’t. The whole premise is flawed and faulty and demeaning.

Georgina Barratt-See - 02 September 2008 10:36 AM

I don’t like this article. I’m sorry, but I don’t. The whole premise is flawed and faulty and demeaning.

That was my assessment of the tone of the article too. However it’s evident that there are many more women than men in our churches (and also our major cities) and that is a social problem.

Georgina Barratt-See - 02 September 2008 10:36 AM

I think, then, it should not have been used at all.
The whole idea that only the “hot chicks” are attractive is worldly and not biblical. And the idea that “hot chicks” should be able to get guys to church is horrible - I’m sorry, but if you’re advertising church as somewhere to get hot chicks, even by repeating comments someone else has said, then you’re completely lacking respect for all the faithful Christian sisters and reducing them to what the world sees. I don’t like this article. I’m sorry, but I don’t. The whole premise is flawed and faulty and demeaning.

I am sorry Georgina for offending you by using this term without quotation marks in the title or this thread, and I agree with most of your critique. It is certainly not true (either biblically or in any other way) that only Christian sisters who are “hot” (in the world’s sense) are attractive, and I certainly don’t agree that church should be advertised as “somewhere to get hot chicks”.

On another level, though, I think there is a lot of truth in the proposition that godly Christian women are very attractive, not only to Christian guys but also to non-Christian guys.  If you read the phrase “hot chicks” in this way (and I am not suggesting that all non-Christian guys would do so, just that the more thoughtful ones amongst them would - see 1 Peter 3:1-2), then it becomes a compliment, including to godly Christian women who do not satisfy the world’s deeply flawed definition of “hot”.

I also think that the fact that the non-Christian guys here seem to be seeing things that the single Christian guys are not, or at least are not willing to acknowledge, is much more of a critique of the way in which the church does not provide anywhere near enough opportunities for men to be men (which was the point of my original post and a valuable point made in John’s article) than it is of godly Christian women.

I attended a wedding maybe 5 years ago now, where the best man said , if I remember rightly, in making a speech said “ all you guys from St Matthias’ ought to go to XYZ church - there are plenty of good looking girls out there” He and the bride-groom had done just that, and snavelled themselves a wife.
Gill.

Gill Evans - 02 September 2008 03:44 PM

I attended a wedding maybe 5 years ago now, where the best man said , if I remember rightly, in making a speech said “ all you guys from St Matthias’ ought to go to XYZ church - there are plenty of good looking girls out there” He and the bride-groom had done just that, and snavelled themselves a wife.
Gill.

I think it’s tragic that such superficial values are aired and reinforced at a wedding between Christians. Not every man is good looking either. But physical beauty is not the criterion for marriage nor for other forms of relationships.

Best men, grooms, brides and fathers of the bride often say very silly things at weddings, Christian and non-Christian.

However our son told the assembled well-wishers at his wedding what great parents he has, so they don’t always muck it up completely…

I well understand the problem of males bolting for the door as soon as the service ends - this happens in my family. Maybe the men could be encouraged to bypass the coffee/chatting area and go straight to action stations.
Someone could be appointed “Assistant Pastor for Post Service Men’s Ministry”. This person would co-ordinate setting up tables in the hall area (if the church has one) where -
games such as chess, and other board games are laid out
there is a basket ball hoop
Some men could head outside to a patch of ground and start up a vegetable plot, herb garden, compost heap and worm farm, with the eventual produce given away to needy families.
A group of men and boys could spend 30 minutes at the nearest park with footballs or soccer balls
If the church has a shed, or garage, or an outdoor space where a workbench could be set up, some men could spend time repairing bicycles and toys for distribution to needy communities e.g.some of the N.T. indigenous communities.
A group of men could have a “cook-up” in the kitchen making large amounts of, maybe lasagne, soup, protein biscuits etc for freezing and distribution to needy families in the community, or for transporting to other churches which may need foood outreach - again the indigenous churches of Sydney may appreciate food donations.
Another kitchen group could pack up brown paper bag lunches for transport to inner or outer city churches that have an outreach to homeless people, or go directly to the streets with a team aiming to contact them and make a connection.
Could a group of men spend an hour or so doing house repairs or garden makeovers for elderly, shut-in, poorer families.
Maybe some men could go on a prayer walk/prayer jog around the blocks near to the church.
Again if there was a garage (or even if the rector was willing to offer his garage if he has one, or the nearest church member’s garage) a group could be working on restoring and repairing a car, should one be donated, for the use of missionaries on leave, or to give to a e.g.struggling sole parent.
Some men might do mini-repair jobs around the church such as changing light globes, painting, toilet repairs or installing a shower and laundry on the premises.
For the discussion minded, groups starting five or ten minutes after the end of the service so that they only have time to grab a tea or coffee and only lasting 30 or 40 minutes might be good - in a group there would be something to talk about instead of the excruciating interrogation at morning tea. They could be on bible study, prayer, book club, anger management, men’s health, world evangelization, social justice, topical discussions - whatever is relevant to that group of men.
After all this whirl of activity, the men could rejoin the women folks who have been sitting talking the whole time.
The whole point being, that they will experience fellowship alongside each other while occupied - “friendship must be about something, even an enthusiasm for dominoes or white mice” (C.S.Lewis, The Four Loves).
Do you think any of this is do-able?

Wow, that’s a lot of interesting ideas Alice!

I don’t disagree that it would be good to have more things to do either side of the service (for example), or that getting more men involved in running the church & church business is a good thing, but sometimes men (like myself) bolt for the door is because they’ve been bored witless but the last hour, hour and a half, and just want to get home. The last thing you want to do after that is hang around and chat, really.

It’s like sitting through some tedious, goes-nowhere movie that thinks it’s incredibly profound - by the end you’re so bored you just want to get away!

--

Part of the reason why current man-of-the-moment Driscoll is successful with young men (imo) is that he is, wait for it.. both entertaining & interesting to them - how profound! Making jokes they find funny, and talking about things pertinent to them - ie, their lives & their futures, is always going to be inherently interesting.

The happy, smiley, lets talk about Jehosiphat’s battle with the Ankazanites (yes, I’m making that up :) style of Sydney preaching is often both incredibly tame and irrelevant, yet utterly convinced of its own importance.

I think if people involved with these kinds of services taped them and watched them themselves from start to finish the next day, or with a handful of blokes to gauge their reaction & get some honest feedback (even from just watching them twitch in boredom) it would be a good starting point to reinvigorate things.

--

Finally, I should add that John appeared to be just relating his experience of comments he heard & some general observations, I don’t think he intended to make any characterizations or offend anyone!

Luke, I heartily appreciate your feelings. Last Sunday at church I observed two men actually asleep. During the singing, the men near me at least were staring stolidly ahead, while their lips were barely moving and very little sound was coming out.
My adult sons, who still live at home, and why not because who wants to break up the family, tell me that they hate singing, and find church boring because its always the same.
Of course, its not meant to be a variety show, but I wonder how we can retain the men’s interest, and particularly the younger men, who, my sons tell me, are action-oriented, rather than word oriented. That is why I tried to list some nuts and bolts activities that men could do together, even in 30-60 minutes after a church service, instead of awkwardly clutching a coffee cup and seeking escape.
I haven’t heard the famous Mr. Driscoll, but I wonder if he preaches verse by verse through a passage, or ranges across different topics which are on the minds of the young, and applying what the Bible says to their concerns about living.
Personally I’d like to hear our preachers challenging the young to get more involved in social action, such as reaching out to the homeless, visiting those in prison, setting up a homework club in churches located in high migrant or low income suburbs for example. Not to discount the good work being done everywhere of course.

Alice Prince - 02 September 2008 09:06 PM

I haven’t heard the famous Mr. Driscoll, but I wonder if he preaches verse by verse through a passage, or ranges across different topics which are on the minds of the young, and applying what the Bible says to their concerns about living.

He is emphatically the latter. He does return to the passage and his illustrations are (usually) on point, but I do think that what makes him a captivating speaker is his ability to discuss issues that actually matter to his audience. And to do that, he really does seem to be able to read his audience and determine what does matter to them.