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Mark Driscoll’s visit to Sydney
26 August 2008 4:06pm
5484 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Andrew Underwood - 26 August 2008 04:02 PM

yes i do not like him and can not see why people like him

I like him because he is committed to the Bible, he has excellent theology, he is passionate about Jesus, and he loves God’s people and he loves the lost. And he is a very compelling speaker.

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26 August 2008 4:12pm
2016 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]

I can’t help liking a bloke who is so keen on teaching about God’s grace and who has such a good grasp of theology.

There are things that rub me the wrong way a bit, but you know his heart is in the right place.

discerning folk like John Piper and Don Carson have a lot of time for him. And Don Carson said to Tim Challies that the trajectory of where God is taking him looks really exciting.

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26 August 2008 4:25pm
30 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]

I can see why people might not like him. He does come forth as fairly confrontational and controversial.

With Pastor Mark, I find you either like him, or you hate him… it seems like you can only be indifferent if you have never heard him.

   
26 August 2008 4:33pm
2016 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]

bit tricky hating your Christian brother, though

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26 August 2008 4:47pm
20 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]

Thank you for your honesty Andrew...but you are way wrong.

I’m grateful to God that there are men around (of which Mark Driscoll is only one) who are clearly and passionately articulating the ever true Gospel, without compromise, and lovingly for people who are going to hell lest they repent. 

Being in Melbourne I’ll miss the great opportunities that are being promoted in Sydney. I pray God uses it.

Perhaps Marks will venture down here next time where men play real football

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26 August 2008 4:56pm
30 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]

Hah…

I have a feeling that from where Mark is from, he would be foreign to both our codes of football.

   
26 August 2008 5:05pm
1532 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]

If Jesus is not an ass-kicking man’s man who changes his own oil, wins bar fights, and ropes cattle, he certainly is not worthy of Driscoll’s worship.

Andrew - you say that like it’s a bad thing ;)

Here’s a fascinating article, which I’ll post in full ( in two sections ) due to the intensity of this thread - and the need to reflect on what we are on about :

How Do You Solve a Problem Like Mark Driscoll?

How Do You Solve a Problem Like Mark Driscoll ?

How do you solve a problem like Mark Driscoll? Is he a darling, a demon, a lamb? He’d out pester any pest; drive a hornet from it’s nest. He could throw a whirling dervish out of whirl. He is gentle; he is wild. He’s a riddle; he’s a child. He’s a headache. He’s an angel. He’s a…

Never mind. Forgive me for the introduction. Just a couple of days ago my mother-in-law and I were discussing The Sound of Music and somehow this came to mind. I post it with apologies to Maria Julie Andrews. May she sing forever.

Yesterday I posted a review of Mark Driscoll’s new book, Vintage Jesus. Were I to summarize the review I’d say that I was “hesitantly positive” towards it. I liked 99.9% of it but was troubled by a couple of mis-steps that I judged to be quite serious. These involved Driscoll’s use of phrases that I’d consider inappropriate. If you’d like to know more, you can read the review.

The review generated quite a reaction. The post quickly generated almost 70 comments before I realized the discussion was really not progressing and I opted to close it down. I was not surprised at the reaction. Love him or hate him, everyone has an opinion about Mark Driscoll. As has been proven when I’ve written about his other books, writing reviews is a lose-lose proposition. Some will react with anger that I even saw fit to mention the phrases that troubled me while others will react with disgust that, despite those things, I did not condemn the book and its author. Of course there were many who appreciated and I received some kind emails from people, many of whom known and love Driscoll, thanking me for taking a balanced approach. I hope the review communicated both my respect for him and this book and my hesitance based on his occasional use of rough language.

So how are we to think about Mark Driscoll? I’ve had to work through this in my mind and I thought I’d share just a few of the things that have rattled around my brain in the past years, weeks, months, days. I do this not to convince you but rather to explain why I could dislike certain references within Driscoll’s work, and yet not allow that to form the basis of a blanket condemnation of the book, the man, and his ministry. Maybe (and hopefully) this will explain to you why I reviewed the book as I did.

HE’S A REAL GUY
Not too long after I started blogging, I wrote a review that, in retrospect, may have been too harsh and perhaps even unfair (you may know of the author but have probably not read the book). As I read through that review today, I sometimes feel a twinge of conscience. Other times I feel that it was a legitimate criticism. In either case, several months after writing the review I had the opportunity to meet the author and was rather surprised to see that he was a real man. He wasn’t some cleverly programmed computer who just happened to write a book, but a real guy with a wife and kids and friends and family. Somehow that hadn’t occurred to me. It came as a shock and I believe it changed the way I review books and the way I address other people on this site.

Mark Driscoll may have a larger-than-life personality, but he is still a real guy who not only offends others but is no doubt offended by them. I’m sure his bravado on the stage is matched by times of sober reflection in private. We need to be certain that in our critiques we do not say things that we’d never say to him face-to-face and that we do not treat him as a guy that, since he is so remote from us, is somehow less human than we are. It’s an obvious point, I know, but in this depersonalized online world it’s worth reminding ourselves of it quite often.

This should go without saying, but I think it is sometimes easy to forget that people with big personalities are still people. Driscoll is a guy who, at the end of the day, goes home to a family not too different than yours or mine. He has children who love and and a wife, who, if she’s anything like mine, probably takes criticism of him harder than he does. He’s a real guy. Maybe he even cries at the end of chick flicks. Probably not. But he’s still a real guy.

MAJOR ON THE MAJORS
Last weekend I had the privilege of spending a fair bit of time with D.A. Carson and he said something about Driscoll that I found interesting and meaningful. Because he has said this to others, I don’t think I’m violating any kind of trust in mentioning it. There is no doubt that people have had difficulty knowing what to do with Driscoll and knowing how to think about him. But Carson said he finds it helpful to look not just at where Driscoll is, but at the trajectory he is on. I took that to mean that if we look at where he has come from and then plot a course by where he is now, we’ll see that he is growing and maturing as a Christian and that he is continually emphasizing better and more biblical theology. We are all works in progress. This is not to say that we should hope that Mark Driscoll grows up to become John MacArthur or R.C. Sproul. Rather, it simply means that it is sometimes wise to look at the wider picture.
When we look to that wider picture we see that Driscoll clearly believes in and teaches the gospel. He has proven that he has a very good grasp on Christian doctrine and that he is no theological light-weight. He has proven that he’s unashamed to preach the gospel in contexts adamantly opposed to it. Thus any of our criticisms of him are dealing with, at best, secondary matters. This is an important matter of perspective.

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“ Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. “

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26 August 2008 5:09pm
1532 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]

How Do You Solve a Problem Like Mark Driscoll ? ( part 2 )

BY THEIR FRUIT…
Matthew 7:16 is a well-known passage and one that is important to this kind of discussion. In a passage dealing with false prophets (a title many are willing to assign to Driscoll) Jesus says, “You will recognize them by their fruits.” And when we look at Driscoll’s ministry, there is no doubt that it is bearing fruit. While I have not traveled to Mars Hill and have not spent a lot of time in Acts 29 churches, I’ve spoken to many people who have. And it seems beyond dispute that the church and the movement are seeing a huge number of genuine, gospel conversions. These are not people who are coming forward at a crusade and later returning home and wondering just what they’ve done, but people who are seeing their hearts and their lives transformed by the gospel. There are multitudes being saved among the most difficult-to-reach demographic in the most difficult cultural settings in America. They are not being saved to a gospel of easy-believism or self-esteem, but to the true gospel built upon true, biblical theology.

If we are to judge Mark Driscoll, his church and its church planting movement by its fruits, we will have to conclude that God is choosing to bless them and to bless them in abundance. Like it or not (and for some reason I think too many “discerning” people don’t like it and refuse to admit it!), God is using this guy for His glory.

BECAUSE OF…OR DESPITE ?
This may be a seemingly-silly distinction, but it is one that I’ve found helpful. It is true of any Christian that there are times God uses us because of who He has made us to be. He has given us all certain talents and gifts and He often uses us because of these things. God blessed Charles Spurgeon with a towering intellect, an incredible memory, and an amazing ability to communicate and through these God-given means He used Spurgeon. Yet it is equally true that God uses people despite certain aspects of their lives of personalities. All of us are blinded to certain sins and failings and all of us continue to provoke God on a daily basis. But God uses us despite these things.

When it comes to Mark Driscoll, some Christians would say that God uses him despite his use of sometimes-vulgar language while others would say that God uses him because of such cultural relevance. Of course there are others, some of whom seem to fancy themselves the church’s conscience, who would say that Driscoll is not and will not be used by God because of these things, but I’d suggest they are simply ignoring clear evidence to the contrary. The basis for this “because of / despite” distinction will come down to a Christian’s understanding of certain biblical exhortations about language and to a person’s biblically-informed conscience. In either case, we need to acknowledge that Christians differ on certain issues and what is vulgar to one person may not be to another. We need to allow room for conscience to speak where biblically-submitted Christians differ. So you will need to respect my hesitance when it comes to phrases I understand to be vulgar while I’ll have to tolerate your freedom to disagree. This is true tolerance—a respect on the basis of differences.

SO ?
I have never met Mark Driscoll. I don’t think he and I have ever exchanged emails or text messages or instant messages or anything else (or not that I remember, anyways). So I have no personal connection to him. But I love the guy as a brother in Christ. Whatever you feel about Mark Driscoll, you’ll need to agree that God is using him in an unusually powerful way. You’ll need to affirm that he is a brother. This is a reason for rejoicing, and I do rejoice. I pray for Mark Driscoll, that God would continue to bless his ministry and continue to do amazing things through him. I do not agree with some of the ways he chooses to communicate, but neither do I need to. He is doing the Lord’s work in a tough place. And I love him in Christ and support him in that work.

Amen to that last paragraph.

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“ Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. “

( 1 Thessalonians 5:11 )

   
26 August 2008 6:08pm
337 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Geoff Chambers - 26 August 2008 10:35 AM

He’ll be speaking at Moore college at 2pm tomorrow. I’m pretty sure you don’t have to be a student to come.

Hi Geoff

I don’t think it is open to everyone - most Moore College lectures aren’t, and you need permission of the lecturer to attend.  Except of course those lectures that are explicitly open - where the public are invited to attend - such as the Annuel Lectures.

Tomorrows lecture is aimed at Moore College students.

So - unless it has been explicitly stated by MTC to be a public lecture, it won’t be open to everyone.

Mike

   
26 August 2008 6:50pm
852 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Mike Doyle - 26 August 2008 06:08 PM
Geoff Chambers - 26 August 2008 10:35 AM

He’ll be speaking at Moore college at 2pm tomorrow. I’m pretty sure you don’t have to be a student to come.

Hi Geoff

I don’t think it is open to everyone - most Moore College lectures aren’t, and you need permission of the lecturer to attend.  Except of course those lectures that are explicitly open - where the public are invited to attend - such as the Annuel Lectures.

Tomorrows lecture is aimed at Moore College students.

So - unless it has been explicitly stated by MTC to be a public lecture, it won’t be open to everyone.

Mike

Your a bad man Geoff Chambers…

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26 August 2008 7:19pm
89 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
David McKay - 26 August 2008 04:33 PM

bit tricky hating your Christian brother, though

i never said that i hated him i said i do not like him.
there poeple in the church i do not like (Phillip Aspinall, Mark Driscoll and others) but i still love them as a brother and do anything for them for they do great things for the Lord

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26 August 2008 7:52pm
852 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Andrew Underwood - 26 August 2008 07:19 PM

...do anything for them for they do great things for the Lord

you must really like him then :-)

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26 August 2008 8:12pm
95 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]

Mark Driscoll preached on Ruth on Sunday evening at my church (St Thomas North Sydney).  The main things that struck me were:

* in terms of spiritual gifts / personal style, he is a pastor / evangelist, not a “teacher” (at least in the sense in we here in Sydney use the latter term).  I therefore don’t think that we should be measuring (judging?) his ministry by our own personal preferences, or by comparing it to the styles of ministry that we are used to in Sydney;

* he is also an American (loud, brash, in your face, etc) ministering primarily to other Americans. Again, if we judge him by our much more reserved English standards, then we are missing the point;

* Ruth is not really a theologically “heavy” book - in order to be able to compare him “like for like’ against our usual fare here in Sydney, I would want to hear him preach on Romans....

* based on what he had to say about Boaz, the biggest weakness in his teaching on sexuality / masculininty is that he didn’t really have anything to say to guys who are struggling, or who are unwilling / unable to live up to the masculine stereotypes (particularly of being a financial provider) that he was promoting.  He also seemed to assume that marriage was a goal in itself, thereby devaluing those who are single.

* at the same time, I do not see anything wrong with taking people through the courtship story in Ruth as an example (neither descriptive nor prescriptive - I don’t think categorisations of this kind are at all meaningful or helpful) of how to go about it.  In my view, the Ruth story rightly serves as a corrective to various errors that both men and women frequently make when dealing with the opposite sex. I would therefore give full marks to Mark on this for having the courage to preach expositorily on them in this way.

* I do not like the “hero worship” that I see surrounding him, but I do definitely think that he is being greatly used by God.  It will be interesting to see whether he stays the course, or whether his celebrity will get the better of him over time.

   
27 August 2008 12:31am
337 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Geoff Chambers - 26 August 2008 06:50 PM

Your a bad man Geoff Chambers…

Yep ;-) - trying to share our “special” time with Mark with others - outrageous!

Actually - just so everyone knows - it was officially announced today at Lunch that the Mark Driscoll thing at MTC is for students only - and we were told not to invite friends.

So - we do love ya - but come another time (perhaps the Annual Lectures 2009)

Mike

   
27 August 2008 1:43am
698 posts
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Andrew Underwood - 26 August 2008 07:19 PM
David McKay - 26 August 2008 04:33 PM

bit tricky hating your Christian brother, though

i never said that i hated him i said i do not like him.
there poeple in the church i do not like (Phillip Aspinall, Mark Driscoll and others) but i still love them as a brother and do anything for them for they do great things for the Lord

Andrew
David wasn’t referring to your post but to that of Alwyn Chin (immediately before) who said of Driscoll that people either love him or hate him.
Bob

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