Bob Cameron - 02 August 2008 01:57 AM

3 God does NOT forgive those who do not repent, nor can we.  The very nature of forgiveness is that it is an act of reconciliation between two parties.  It can only take place when BOTH parties ‘come to the table’.
...Bob

Bob,

Thank you for your excellent post. I disagree with parts of your third point. I believe forgiveness can take place and there be No reconciliation this side of heaven. Reconciliation is a result of forgiveness if both parties are alive and are willing to restore their relationship, which was broken by the offense.

I can forgive someone without them asking for it. This is immensely freeing. There may never be reconciliation for a variety of reasons; their pride; a change of address; the passing of time; and the biggie, death.

I may hope for reconciliation when I am the injured party who offers forgiveness. Sadly, the other person may not be interested in restoring the relationship even though they are now forgiven. Also, it is wise for both parties if reconciliation is not pursued if the safety and well-being of the offended are at risk. But as I said before, the offended is still free to forgive since it is a gift.

Any thoughts?

Bob Cameron - 02 August 2008 01:57 AM

The very nature of forgiveness is that it is an act of reconciliation between two parties.  It can only take place when BOTH parties ‘come to the table’.

Hi again Bob. I believe this is a misunderstanding of forgiveness. While forgiveness must precede reconciliation, it doesn’t necessitate it. Forgiveness is primarily relinquishing the right “to get even” while still expecting justice (though sometimes not until final judgement). We are seeking justice (not vengeance) when we no longer derive pleasure from that metered justice.
In his book the “Art of Forgiveness”, Lewis Smedes describes three fundamental stages of forgiveness: 1. we rediscover the humanity of the perpetrator; 2. we surrender the right to get even; 3. we revise our feelings towards the perpetrator. In stage 2 he makes very clear the differences between the desire for vengeance and the desire for justice.

Angela and Angus

I have no difficulty with what either of you are proposing as a good and healthy thing to pursue, vis, letting go of my desire to ‘get even’ and to see someone punished for what they have done to me.  But I don’t think this is what the Bible calls ‘forgiveness’.  As far as I can see, the Biblical notion of forgiveness is by its very nature bound up with reconciliation, because it is a response to repentance.

So in one situation that Angela refers to, where the offending party is deceased, no, I don’t think I can forgive them (not, at least, in the way the Bible speaks of forgiveness).  But I think I can be released from the hurt I’ve suffered by handing the matter over to God, by coming to a place where, if that person were still alive, I would be ready to forgive them if they sought my forgiveness.

I’m keen to hear if anyone can substantiate from Scripture the idea that we are to forgive those who have sinned against us whether or not they repent.  It seems to me a popular idea, but I’m not convinced it’s Biblical.  The closest I think the Bible comes to it is when Jesus (and Stephen) ask God to forgive their murderers - but they themselves don’t forgive; they hand the matter over to the Father; and I don’t think their prayers relieve the offenders of the need to repent before the Father will forgive them.

Bob

Bob,

Thanks again! I would love to come and hear you preach just on account of your posts!!!

I need some clarification. Are we discussing relationships between people or between God and His people/believer?

I understand that the forgiveness in the Lord’s prayer calls upon us to forgive as God has forgiven us. There is no mention of reconciliation, of re-establishing the broken trust...or is there? My (very) simple understanding of this command to forgive is that I am to offer forgiveness or does the latter half of the instruction to forgive “as God has forgiven you” change that? If this has been discussed all ready, then I do apologise!

I’m still thinking about your last post.

Bob Cameron - 05 August 2008 02:48 AM

I’m keen to hear if anyone can substantiate from Scripture the idea that we are to forgive those who have sinned against us whether or not they repent.

OK, good call Bob. I’ll give it a go ...

Firstly, one passage that seems to support you premise:

Luke 17:3-4
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.

Here it seems clear that forgiveness is linked to repentance. However, you’ll note the immediate context of this seemingly conditional forgiveness is within an existing “brotherly” relationship. (More on this later.)

Next, an excerpt from Jesus’ “Sermon on the Mount”:

Matthew 5:38-48
You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Love Your Enemies. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Here Jesus is speaking very clearly against “getting even” (vengeance) for wrong doing, Jesus even says we should repay evil with good! This is reiterated by Paul:

Romans 12:17-21
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

See also 1 Peter 3:9 & Mark 11:25

It seems evident that when we are wronged we need to be prepared to repay that wrong with kindness irrespective of whether there has been repentance. And just to clarify further, I’m sure when Paul says “heap burning coals” he’s not wishing to see their souls “burning in hell”. What he’s wanting is the wrongdoer though receiving unexpected kindness to recognise their own wickedness and metaphorically put “burning coals” on their own heads (cf Neh 9:1; Est 4:1; Prov 25:21-22) - ie sackcloth and ashes plus extra! - and express genuine remorse and repentance.

Now to the Lord’s Prayer:

Matthew 6:9-15
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Here, we are called to forgive as God forgives. This is a bit tricky because God is both judge and the one wronged, so we need to differentiate God’s forgiveness from his divine justice.

Romans 5:6-8
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Anyhow, if we set aside a strict definition of “forgiveness” for the moment, we have a clear path for how we are to respond to those who do us wrong:
1. We are to see them as the fallen creatures that they are, as we all are. We have all done wrong.
2. We are commanded not to seek vengeance, but rather return kindness when we are wronged. This does not mean that the wrong is forgotten or ignored, but the true pain is acknowledged and, in spite of it, we relinquish our natural right for recompense.
3. We seek the well being of the wrong-doer.
4. We seek civil justice (if that is needed to restore or preserve civil order) and eventually anticipate divine justice if the wrong-doer never repents of their actions.

Back to the Luke 17 passage above where forgiveness seems linked to repentance. In that context forgiveness is within an existing “brotherly” relationship and assumes a continuation of this “brotherly” relationship, so in this specific context it does necessitate repentance for that “brotherly” relationship to continue unchanged.

I’ve been considering the parable of the unmerciful servant. He was forgiven by the king and this was shown by the king cancelling his debt and not imprisoning him. I’m not sure if this is a suitable passage for me to choose to discuss the inter-related subjects of of forgiveness, repentance and reconciliation. I would very much appreciate your insights.

What I believe to be evident is that the unmerciful servant briefly enjoyed his forgiveness without repentance. I think this is shown when he encounters a fellow servant and does not extend the king’s forgiveness he has thus far enjoyed to this fellow servant. His behaviour towards his fellow servant is reprehensible and we all know what follows.

So what am I trying to say in the light of recent posts. Not sure!

Do you think it is worth discussing this parable for this topic?

I’ve just noticed Angus’s post. Looks good! Now to read it…

When I was at a “wedding church” preparing 100s of younger ones for marriage, a student minister and I prepared a “pre-marriage” course which included working out how to forgive your partner, on similar lines to Bob’s view. I have now worked it into 2 weeks of a 4 week relationship seminar/study for all people. PM me (& supply me with an email address), & I can send a free copy of those 2 weeks if you would like, .

Angus,
Quoting Luke 17 didn’t get me anywhere when I gently and privately reminded the Anglo-Catholics that worship in my (Catholic) Church that it was wrong for them to receive Holy Communion with me.
It seems you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t!!!
thomasmore

Angela Crittle - 05 August 2008 12:44 PM

I’ve been considering the parable of the unmerciful servant. He was forgiven by the king and this was shown by the king cancelling his debt and not imprisoning him. I’m not sure if this is a suitable passage for me to choose to discuss the inter-related subjects of of forgiveness, repentance and reconciliation. I would very much appreciate your insights.

What I believe to be evident is that the unmerciful servant briefly enjoyed his forgiveness without repentance. I think this is shown when he encounters a fellow servant and does not extend the king’s forgiveness he has thus far enjoyed to this fellow servant. His behaviour towards his fellow servant is reprehensible and we all know what follows.

So what am I trying to say in the light of recent posts. Not sure!

Do you think it is worth discussing this parable for this topic?

Angela

The parable of the Unmerciful Servant is definitely relevant here.  It is, effectively, an exposition of Matthew 6:12, 14-15.  You’re quite right that, in a sense, the servant received forgiveness, although I’m not sure that there was any repentance in evidence, only a plea for mercy.  But when it became clear from his subsequent actions that the enormous mercy he was shown was deemed a trivial thing in his eyes, it was then withdrawn and he was roundly condemned.

The difference with God (compared to the master in the parable), of course, is that he knows our hearts, so there is no “fooling him” so to speak.  Our lack of forgiveness towards others does not so much cancel out God’s forgiveness, as it betrays our hearts.  It proves that we are just like the Unmerciful Servant, that we diminish the mercy of God as a trivial thing, and that we consider offences against us as being of greater significance than our offence against God.  We show that we have not understood the horror of sin, that we have never truly repented, and that we have never genuinely and humbly sought God’s forgiveness in full knowledge of our own unworthiness.  Such a person never had God’s forgiveness, and will not have it unless they repent of such hard-heartedness and pride.

Bob

Angus

I’ll come back to your post, but it won’t be to disagree with it!  Thanks for a very thoughtful and engaging response.

Bob

Angus,

With all my heart, “Thank you.”

cheers
Angela

Bob,

Would you agree that this parable shows that we can experience mercy without true reconciliation and repentance? Just a point of clarification.

Thanks again for your wonderful posts.
Angela

Angela Crittle - 07 August 2008 12:55 PM

Bob,

Would you agree that this parable shows that we can experience mercy without true reconciliation and repentance? Just a point of clarification.

Thanks again for your wonderful posts.
Angela

Angela

There is no doubt that people who have not repented and remain unreconciled to God experience his mercy in this present age.  In the same way, indeed on the basis of God’s mercy in this regard, we also are to be merciful, indeed loving, even towards those who hate us (Matthew 5:44-45).

But I don’t think that’s the point of the parable of the unmerciful servant (Matthew 18:21ff).  There Jesus is teaching what the final outcome will be for those who lay claim to the forgiveness of God but then refuse to forgive others.  Jesus’ final words there:

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart

are a reminder that our acceptance of God’s forgiveness must have a flow on effect in our own hearts, so that we become forgiving people.  The issues of repentance and reconciliation aren’t raised in the parable, because they are beyond the scope of its purpose.

Regards,

Bob