On the topic of talking through your hat.. Is this the dumbest thing written in a mainstream newspaper about the Anglican crisis?

Stephen Bates in the Guardian:

The Nigerians’ influence in worldwide Anglicanism, despite their bishops’ absence from the Lambeth Conference, is predicated on the size of their church and its rapid growth. While the Nigerian church has undoubtedly been recruiting members, the Nigerians figure of at least 18 million (up from five million 30 years ago) also looks dubious since there is nothing to stop people being members of more than one parish. There are even rumours that livestock is included by some hard-pressed dioceses, but that may be just apocryphal.

Yeah.. that’s right Nigerian Christians out in the boondocks of Kaduna hop in their BMW and cruise over to their neighbouring village to attend church there as well.
Has this guy actually visited a village church in the developing world and seen the way people walk miles to attend their parish church?

Its not that hard to find solid figures, as I pointed out earlier. CIA factbook. 13.5 million Anglicans in 2000 and growing fast. The 18 million figure may well be on the high end of estimates but so what? It puts to shame the number of Anglicans attending church in all the Western countries combined which would struggle to top 2 million.

My goodness. “There are even rumours that...”

These days, anyone can be a reporter.

Response to jeremy: Sudan have agreed to the consecration of women as bishops! I think GAFCON needs to be less incluisive , if it is too secure its long term future.

I know the Guardian article overstates the case, but as some one who lived in South Africa for some of his life, I know from experience that many Africans ( and certainly not all) have a different concept of Church membership and religious affiliation...they can be in many different churches at the same time and even go home to practice pagan customs....so powerful are the cultural traditions .for instance the Church in Nigeria has a constant battle with polygamy. I hope that does not sound racist or patronising.

It does.

I’ve read through it, and I think any mssissonary to Africa or African church leader would agree and say that there are problems in a convert church..MAY I STATE HERE THAT I BELIEVE THAT ALL RACISM IS SiN, AND THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE RACE, THE HUMAN RACE.

I found this interview with Bishop Harold Miller from Northern Ireland both very insightful and very sad as to its insights into the state of the Anglican Communion.

In particular - drawing on his experience of negotiating through sectarian violence - he makes some very good points about why the Windsor process has failed and why the success of ‘Son of Windsor’ looks bleak… the whole process lacks clear definitions of key issues (so the liberals define the deal in terms favourable to them and then think they’ve kept the bargain) and there is no impartial ‘umpire’ to decide if both sides have kept their promises.

He has also observed first hand how far some in TEC have departed from the Christian faith in their understanding (and rewriting) of the creeds, salvation, baptism etc.

Talk about fiddling while Rome (Canterbury) is burning!!
Do you really think that the world cares about what is going on in the Anglican Church?
In Our Lod and His Most Blessed Mother,
Brent

Brent Anthony Egan - 01 August 2008 07:05 PM

In Our Lod

Aye, ‘e were always a friendly Lod.

Robert ian Williams - 31 July 2008 07:38 PM

I’ve read through it, and I think any mssissonary to Africa or African church leader would agree and say that there are problems in a convert church..

As someone currently in a country with a convert church, albeit a church not even in the Anglican communion, let alone in GAFCON, I think it is fair to say that a convert church may have cultural issues.

But then again, it would take a lot of arrogance to assume that there are no issues in the local church too. 

Just because people have converted from animism, or buddhism, or islam, or secularism, doesn’t mean that only their cultural belief system skews their picture of God.

One great challenge of the gospel is the humility to realise that we are all only in a right relationship with God, and given a right understanding of God because he gives it to us.

To single out the African church does not do justice to the issues like pre-marital cohabitation and immorality, adultery, idolatry of money and possessions, and a God-denying liberalism that may be just below the surface in even the best taught Sydney churches.  Further, I would argue that all churches are in practice to some extent convert churches (that is with people who have been converted from idolatory to serving the true and living God), because of the way sin operates on our hearts.

Where teaching may be shallow, GAFCON has opened up many opportunities for resource sharing.  I hope that some of the sharing is the African churches bringing their enthusiasm for the gospel into our city.

Robert ian Williams - 28 July 2008 09:33 AM

As Winston Churchill remarked, There are lies, (expletive deleted) lies and then there are statistics!

Hi Robert
In the interests of history we should note that it was Benjamin Disraeli who uttered these immortal words:

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Regards,
Bob

Thanks Bob, I knew it was a Prime minister and a Conservative one. By the way I found Peter Denham ( son ?) very helpful in the points he made. Thank you.

Jackie Bruchi has some pungent words over on Stand Firm about the value of Lambeth 08:

If this is the best that Lambeth is going to do, why did they waste the money? I would much rather have seen the 8 million pounds or so given to drill wells in the Sudan or relief for the suffering in Africa or any of the other thousands of places TEC and AC leadership pretend to care about. Remember talk is cheap and we could have gotten this load of manure delivered to our doors for less than a dollar.

Meanwhile, here’s an interview with Gregory Venables, linked from the ACL wevsite.

Hi Robert IW

By the way I found Peter Denham ( son ?) very helpful in the points he made. Thank you.

That’s one of my boys! Onya Pete.

Lambeth is wrapping up, and the ACL has various good stuff on it.

I was one of those who thought Dr Jensen and his bishops were mistaken in declining to attend the Lambeth Conference, but after reading Bishop Ellena’s (Nelson, NZ) reflections to his clergy in which he describes it as “an exercise in futility”, Sydney appears to have made a good call.

I am sure we will all be told that “scism has been averted” but since that seems to have been achieved by the avoidance of any frank and open discussion about the issues in dispute, it is difficult to see why any conservative bishop would bother attending one of these conferences again.