So are Baptists , and sincere men like Billy Graham obstinate.....because they cannot see infant baptism, and Presbyterians because thay cannot see bishops......in the plain word of God?
They see too little and I see too much!
A nice little anecdote, but it doesn’t answer the serious question
The only answer is to have a source of authority , who is like Him who spoke , not like the scribes and the pharisees ,but as one having authority. He who commissioned a teaching Church to teach in perpetuity..Lo I am with you even unto the end of the age....the pillar and foundation of the truth...a city set on a hill, which cannot be hid....
How about you have a go at answering the serious question put repeatedly to you on this thread about showing some evidence for the veracity of the doctrine of indulgences?
And do you really believe that Jesus’ words “Lo I am with you even unto the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20) are about a particular institutional church, rather than his imminent gift of the Holy Spirit? See for instance Luke 24:49,
[quote author="Luke 24:49, ESV translation"]And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.
Plus there is the question I raised with you in the “Honouring God in Grey Areas” thread (click ) about what you meant by the certainty that the believers in Acts had.
Can I gently suggest that rather than repeating ad nauseum the same objections which have already been responded to many times by other posters here, that you start devoting some of your posting time to graciously answering the questions respectfully put to you? It is simply a matter of common courtesy that may actually lead to people being more willing to engage further with your concerns if you show the same willingness to engage with theirs.
You completely fail to answer my challenge about the phrase “faith alone “( used by the Dean)is only found in that form in the Epistle of James ,and to refute it!
If you take James 2:24 on its own then it does appear that James is refuting salvation by faith alone. I don’t find it surprising that the RCC points to this letter as proof of their position.
Though I think it is important to note that the recipients of Jame’s letter are people who profess to be followers of the Lord Jesus; and James is writing them to live out their faith and that to merely say that one is a Christian is meaningless if their lives are not charactersed by good works.
Have a look at James 2:14 Robert:
What good is it my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but no deeds? Will such a faith save him.
James is saying that a real authentic saviing faith in the person and completed once for all work of the Lord Jesus will manifest itself by actions, in this case, by deeds. The deeds declare that a man/woman is righteous, his/her deeds do not make him/her righteous before God, and nor does words, or a profession of faith not lived out, which is James point.
Some Roman Catholics have attempted to Paul against James by using Romans 4:2-3 against James 2:24. This apparent contradiction can be explained by an examination of the Greek work that is translated -’justified’. The context and usage of the word in James is different to that of Paul and thus can be translated as ‘authenitcated’ or ‘proved right’.
Justification is always out of faith (Rom 1:17; 3:26,30; 4:16;5:1; 9:30,32; 10:6,14; Gal 2:16;3:7ff, 11ff, 22, 24; 5:5) or through faith (Rom 3:25, Ga;l 3:14, Eph 3:12,17; Col 2:12; Heb 10:38) but never because of faith.
As for Bob’s comment ..."you wll be punished.”.. I expected better
Robert
My sense of humour, especially in robust debate, includes friendly teasing. If doing so caused you offense, I apologise. I assure you that it was not malicious.
Bob
G’day Robert
We do have a source of authority, as Knox was saying.
It is the Word of God.
His saying is very good because where our teachers agree with it, we may listen to them. But where they clearly contradict it, as the Roman Catholic Chruch does, over and over, we must listen to God and not to Anglicans or Baptists or Calathumpians or Catholics, but to God himself, who speaks plainly in his word.
This is the very reason why I can’t listen to Anglicans or Presbyterians or Roman Catholics on baptism, because they have added infant baptism to what is in Scripture. [John Knox himself was off on this one.]
This is the very reason why I can’t listen to Anglicans or Presbyterians or Roman Catholics on baptism, because they have added infant baptism to what is in Scripture.
It’s interesting to read the comments posted on this topic. Seems the 500 year old debate on whether the Catholic Church is the ‘whore of babylon’ is alive and well in the 21st century. I would love to debate every controversial topic objectional to protestants on the Catholic Church, but they would ban me from the forum for taking up so much room. I can suggest a couple of books to start with if people are genuinely enquiring about what the Catholic Church teaches. If you are sincere you will go to a reliable source, not an anti-Catholic professing to know what the Church teaches. One such book is “The Attack on Romanism by Bible Christians” by Karl Keating. Any book by Professor Scott Hahn is exceptional. All these books will clearly explain the CAtholic faith by scripture ALONE! Fancy that. By the way, can anyone tell me where in the bible does it say you are saved by faith alone or that our sole rule of faith is the bible alone. I thought Jesus sen t the Apostles to “preach”, He never commissioned them to write. And if we believe the Holy Spirit can inspire the Scripture writers to write infallibly the Word of God, is it unreasonably that the same Holy Spirit preserves a church clearly set up in the most early days of Christianity.
Hi Donna
Your advice of reading what Roman Catholics themselves say is good. Ad fontes, as they say.
Fro this reason, I did the Australian Roman Catholic Correspondence Course from the Catholic Enquiry Centre about 5 years ago and I discovered that what Protestants had told me Roman Catholics believe was a pretty fair presentation of what they believe.
But it was worth checking it out for myself.
The course is free of charge and I recommend it to anyone who wants to hear what Australian Roman Catholics themselves say about their faith.
Hi David,
I feel pretty confident that if you read any books by Dr Scott Hahn (and there are plenty of other authors I could suggest to you) you would be extremely surprised how much of Catholic doctrine can be backed up with scripture. Dr Scott Hahn was a vehement anti-Catholic and went out of his way at Bible college to ensure he spread the word that the Catholic Church was the ‘whore of babylon’. On his deep study of scripture and church history, he discovered that what he thought the Catholic Church believed was completely wrong. Unfortunately, many Catholics are so ignorant of their faith. That is why so many leave, and they are doing such an injustice to themselves and the church. There are many protestant ministers who have come into the Catholic Church as a result of Scott Hahn’s journey. My own husband was an anti-Catholic and tried extremely hard to pull me out of the church. He now is a Catholic and can now see how illogical many of the protestant arguments against the Catholic Church are. My aim here is not to ‘convert’ but to share the truth of the Catholic Church and to fix, if I can, many misconceptions protestants and, indeed, Catholics have regarding the faith. If people are interested, so be it. God does the rest.
...he discovered that what he thought the Catholic Church believed was completely wrong.
... if I can, many misconceptions protestants and, indeed, Catholics have regarding the faith.
Hi Donna
I would be interested in hearing what you think the things are that many protestants think about the Catholic church but are wrong?
In other words - what do you think protestants think about the Catholic church?
I thought Jesus sen t the Apostles to “preach”, He never commissioned them to write.
But surely if they were speaking as authorised representatives of the Lord Jesus, there would be no discrepancy between the inspired words they spoke and the written records of those spoken words? Also, you may be forgetting the directions Jesus gave the apostle John to write letters to the seven churches of Asia (Revelation 1:10-19).
Donna Green - 18 July 2008 02:50 PM
And if we believe the Holy Spirit can inspire the Scripture writers to write infallibly the Word of God, is it unreasonably that the same Holy Spirit preserves a church clearly set up in the most early days of Christianity.
Maybe not unreasonable, but nonetheless not necessarily proven just because it is not unreasonable. What promises are there that the Holy Spirit will preserve a church in a particular location (by which I presume you mean making it infallible in its teaching), comapred to the promises given that the Spirit would inpsire the Apostles in their teaching? Particularly given how many of the churches set up in the first century by the Apostles had to be subsequently pulled into line by the Apostles in the NT letters for following false teachings? What evidence is there that the church in Rome was any less susceptible to these errors than the churches in Galataia, the church at Corinth, the church at Pergamum, etc., which had to be corrected by the authoritative words of scripture?
Hi Mike
This is going to open up a can of worms. However, I’ll do my best.
A couple of examples: Catholics worship Mary; Catholics do not believe in the authority of scripture; Catholics believe they can merit their way into heaven; the Mass is a re-sacrifice of Calvary (in other words, we are sacrificing Christ all over again). This skims the surface. All these examples are misrepresentations of official Catholic teaching. As a Catholic I believe that Jesus has saved me from sin and that His sacrifice is once and for all. That is official Catholic teaching. As a Catholic, I believe that if I were to worship any creature or thing other than the Lord God I would be committing idolatry. That is official CAtholic teaching. As a Catholic I believe that Sacred Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is the Word of God and that to add or take from Scripture is wrong. That is official Catholic Church teaching. As a Catholic I believe that nothing I can do will merit me heaven. Only through Christ’s death and resurrection can I be saved. Official Church teaching. As a Catholic I believe that the Mass is not a re-sacrifice of Calvary. Official church teaching. I can go further into these issues if you like, but I’ll have to do one at a time. Perhaps we could start Sola Scriptura?
I’ll leave it to you.
Regards
Lat day of term today and then freedom..tbut with a social function for retiring staff which all are expected to attend Then I will be able to anaswer your concerns Timbo.
As Catholic convert Monsignor Romald Knox, son of the Sydney style evenagelical Anglican bishop of Manchester said, “ the issue is not which is the true Church, but do you believe that Christ founded a visible hierarchical teaching Church.”
As for your last question to Donna , read Upon this rock, by ex Baptist Stephen Ray, which rebutts William Webster, The church of rRme at the bar of history.......I believe Moore Colege has a copy.
Born Fundamentalist, born again Catholic by Mark Shea..his last chapter compares the See of Rome to the other sees.,a nd how they fell into all kinds of heresy, Arianism,,etc,and even Calvinism in the Sreee of Constantinople in the seventeenth century.
On indulgences tap into your search engine, Primer on Indulgences.
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