Nigel is right that this debate boils down to how you see the liberal-democratic project. As he puts it:

Currently in Australia Religion and State and two separate entities because that creates religious freedom - no one religous group can use the State to attack another. The problem lies in that Muslims seek to break down that separation and create a religious State.

This places evangelical Christians in an interesting predicament because we have never been too keen on the secular state. (ie the secular project denudes the public sphere of God in order to protect the seperation of church and state)

So, Glenn I’d be interested to know what you meant by this:

our “free, democratic society” has a negative effect on the church

If ‘persecution’ is good for the Church… should we working to improve the freedoms for Christians living under Islamicist/Communist regimes? Is liberal-democracy (with freedom of religion / freedom of speech) a virtue that Christians should pursue? Or a false God we should flee?

This is far from a hypothetical question… the most recent reports I’ve read from Iraq suggest that Christians there are more than little concerned about the ‘freedom’ that has been unleashed by the ‘regime’ change. Of course the Iraqi Christians are concerned that they will face much worse persecution under an Islamicist Shi’ite regime than they did under Saddam. My question is should we be working to avoid Islamicists from taking power… and if so, how?

[quote author="Jeremy Halcrow"]So, Glenn I’d be interested to know what you meant by this:

our “free, democratic society” has a negative effect on the church

If ‘persecution’ is good for the Church… should we working to improve the freedoms for Christians living under Islamicist/Communist regimes? Is liberal-democracy (with freedom of religion / freedom of speech) a virtue that Christians should pursue? Or a false God we should flee?

To be honest I don’t know.  People often misunderstand the mission of Voice of the Martyrs, we are not an advocacy group like Amnesty, we are not trying to stop the persecution, we are simply trying to support those who suffer it.  Jesus told us that if we follow Him we will be persecuted unto death.  I do think we should do everything we can to help those who suffer persecution.  If possible I think we should try and stop it but I don’t know if that is what is best for the kingdom.  As I mentioned, the church is most powerful (that is most effective, not powerful in a political sense) when it is under persecution.  If we look at the 1st few centuries of the church, it was most authentic before Constantine authorised it, from then on there was a corrupting effect on the mixing of church and state.

I’m not saying that democracy is the enemy of the church, far from it.  The church has be able to do many things in western democracies that would not have otherwise been able to happen.  The enemy is always spiritual.  When I said “free, democratic society” I probably should have been clearer.  I don’t mean that the freedom and the democracy is the problem, it is what people have done with it.  People have taken that freedom and used it to exclude God.  They have pushed God out of the way in the name of social harmony.  They have used it to push atheistic philosophies in schools and universities in the name of not promoting religion.  I guess my point was simply that in the majority of cases when there has been physical persecution (i.e. Communism, Islamic) the church has seen the enemy and stood against it and has come though stronger and more faithful.  Where as here in the west with our ‘liberal humanistic’ philosophies, where is the enemy?  It is far more insidious.  We don’t see the slow corrupting influence of the world as much. 

Please don’t take me to be saying that we should be encouraging persecution, we should not be masochistic.  I don’t think persecution is a ‘good thing’, I just see the results of it.  Of course there is the other side of the coin and that is that many of the great things that happen in the ‘persecuted church’ (I don’t really like that term, it suggests that we’re not part of the same church) is because there are ‘free’ nations like Australia supporting them.  I don’t know if the is a definite answer I can give here.  In some cases the church may be better off with the persecution; an pastor in a restricted nation once mentioned that he pitied us in the west for our freedom as it is far more damaging to the church than the persecution he faces.  In other situations the church may be better served being free to worship and provide for those who cannot.

Would I like all the persecution to stop?  Of course I would, but for that to happen the whole world (or at least the vast majority of it) is going to have to be saved.

I think it comes down to a perspective within the church.  We should not be seeking freedom, democracy, etc. directly.  We should be seeking the will of God.  If that leads us to democracy and freedom, all the better.  If not, then we must take it as it comes and remain faithful to the last.  I know this could sound a little uncaring to those who suffer, but believe me I understand all too well what it is they suffer.  I also know that the majority of pastors in those situations when given the chance to escape, don’t want to.  They feel that God is best served by them remaining under persecution and spreading the gospel.

[quote author="Jeremy Halcrow"]This is far from a hypothetical question… the most recent reports I’ve read from Iraq suggest that Christians there are more than little concerned about the ‘freedom’ that has been unleashed by the ‘regime’ change. Of course the Iraqi Christians are concerned that they will face much worse persecution under an Islamicist Shi’ite regime than they did under Saddam. My question is should we be working to avoid Islamicists from taking power… and if so, how?

If possible I think yes, because Islam is opposed to God and when it is in authority it attempts to destroy God’s people.  But I don’t know if it is possible in Iraq as the majority of people there are Muslim.

I don’t know what the answer is.  I would like for all people to live in freedom.  But that isn’t going to happen unless the world gets saved.  So I guess my answer to how can we do it is Matthew 28:19-20 “go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

Please believe me when say I am not trying to trivialise the threat of Islam to this country or to Iraq, I understand all too well what the threat is.  I just don’t want people to think that if democracy does fall then that the church has failed.  We will prevail.

Glenn

dialogue

[quote author="Glenn Slaven"]As I mentioned, the church is most powerful (that is most effective, not powerful in a political sense) when it is under persecution.  If we look at the 1st few centuries of the church, it was most authentic before Constantine authorised it, from then on there was a corrupting effect on the mixing of church and state.

I can’t claim to have studied church history in great detail, but I wonder if this comment is actually correct. The church has been very effective at other times. The Reformation, for one, was not a time of persecution in the sense that I think we have in mind in this discussion. The English revival of the 18th Century was similarly not a time of persecution, but was a time of great spiritual power in the visible church.

It limits God to say that His church is “most powerful” only under certain circumstances. He can and does empower the church in many different situations, exercising His sovereign freedom to carry out His purposes in His time and His way.  I’m pretty sure you don’t disagree with this, Glenn, because you said that you don’t think persecution is a “good thing”. Similarly, I’m not saying that persecuted churches throughout history haven’t had a powerful testimony of God’s working in their midst - as you also said, you see positive effects in churches that suffer that way in the course of your work.  It’s just that I have heard others say over the years things like “what the church needs is a good dose of persecution” and I simply cannot accept that.

Yes, it will happen to faithful Christians and yes, it might be a sign of backsliding on our part in Australia that we suffer very little persecution. But I don’t read the Bible as anywhere saying we should actually desire it. Rather I read Peter saying that if we “do good” then in most situations we won’t be mistreated (1 Peter 3:13). The thrust of his teaching - to a church that was being persecuted - was that they should “live such good lives among the pagans” that their behaviour would silence the ignorant men who opposed them (2:12-14). If, then, they did suffer “for righteousness’ sake” then it would be a sign of their faithfulness rather than a merited punishment for bad social behaviour (4:14-18).

I take it from this (and other passages such as 1 Timothy 2) that we should work and pray for a society in which the church is not persecuted.

I don’t know if that is going to be humanly possible in Iraq. Hopefully Iraqi Christians will be pro-active about their role in a future government or their place in the future Iraqi society. I hope it is just media “story telling” that gives the impression that they are simply weeping and cowering because the “freedoms” they had under Saddam are now gone. The freedom to keep silent when your countrymen were being tortured and slaughtered hardly seems consistent with Biblical injunctions not to abuse Christian freedom as an excuse for evil. Anyway, I don’t know much about Iraqi Christianity and, like I C Dimly says in another forum, you can’t trust what you read in the papers, so I don’t want to be too judgmental - they need encouragement and support over there, not accusations about how they behaved under that tyrant. I really have no idea what it must have been like and don’t want to contemplate some of the pressures they would have been put under to make compromises - “Support Saddam or your daughter gets raped” sort of pressure.

What I do know about is Australia, where I think we do face some threats to our freedoms as Christians. I think we take them for granted and risk having them slip away from under our noses if we aren’t careful. The Bible tells us to be at prayer for our governing authorities and I fear that we don’t do this enough any more. I’d like to finish this post by sharing a prayer that I have written and used sometimes in church on this very issue:

Heavenly Father, please grant that we will be governed by men and women who respect and cherish freedom of speech and worship, so that Christians in Australia will always be allowed to meet and to preach the gospel of Christ without breaking the law or being regarded as undesirable. Protect us from the tyranny that is spreading around the world as Islam and post-modern thinking gain influence and power. May our society be ordered peaceably, so that truth and justice will be the hallmarks of our governing institutions at all levels – Federal, State and local. In the name of the one before whom every knee will one day bow, the Lord of all, Jesus Christ. Amen.

Thanks for your reply Glenn. You helpfully bring the discussion back to what should be the central for us as Christians:

We should be seeking the will of God.

I guess that brings us back to the point I made earlier in the thread… that we Christians should be thinking harder about the light biblical values and concepts throw on such issues. What does it mean to be pursuing a ‘ministry of reconciliation’?

As an aside, I think Warren might be correct about the history of persecution and the church, and his disagreement with Glenn’s comment:

As I mentioned, the church is most powerful (that is most effective, not powerful in a political sense) when it is under persecution.

However, Glenn I think you are right when you said:

If we look at the 1st few centuries of the church, it was most authentic before Constantine authorised it, from then on there was a corrupting effect on the mixing of church and state.

We should not overstate the level of persecution that occured in the first three and half centuries of Christian history before Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.

From what I’ve read about the sociology of this period it was love of God that was within the Christians as they lived and worked in an extraordinarly harsh and hard-hearted Roman culture that ‘won’ over converts. They were a ‘subversive element’ if you like working to undermine the ungodliness of an overwhelmingly pagan context. Indeed historian of early Christianity, Dr Paul Barnett, has written some excellent articles on this subject here:

Which, as Warren says, makes the Apostle Peter’s comments about ‘living in harmony’ and ‘doing good’ in the face of persecution all the more telling and applicable for us in the 21st century West.

(.... BTW Warren I loved the gist of your prayer and to remind us of the importance of praying about these issues. But I do wonder if Christ’s command that ‘we must love our enemies’ should remind us that we must not forget - in word, pray and deed - that Muslims are people ... ie we should be praying for Muslims not about Islam.... Just a thought.)

Thanks for the chat guys. Very stimulating, encouraging and edifying.

Sorry I stuffed up the link to Dr Barnett’s articles:

The first has some extremely interesting info about Christian ‘welfare’ work in Roman cities beset by plague and care for orphan girls abandoned by their familes etc:

This article has more focus on what the Bible’s teaching on ‘good works’ (considering the historical context) means for us in Australia, NZ, UK, Nth America etc in 2003

If I may, I’ll continue a side point for a little.

Glenn began it with this comment.

If we look at the 1st few centuries of the church, it was most authentic before Constantine authorised it, from then on there was a corrupting effect on the mixing of church and state.

Warren disagreed (so I thought not to comment), Jeremy agreed (so here I go!).

This statement is puzzling to me: people seem to consider it true because it’s so often repeated. And the evidence given is usually none.

Constantine was highly significant for Christians and churches. There was a changed situation. But ‘most authentic’ before him? Ah, the good old days! Christians certainly did good before Constantine, but to posit a ‘fall’ seems a touch naive.

(To read a bit more about this, have a look at a book by D H Williams Retrieving the Tradition & Renewing Evangelicalism. Terrible title, but worth a read.)

It’s interesting that this idea of a decisive change came up in this topic. For when people in society oppose migration, it is often with a desire to get back to what it once was. Fear of change can express itself as desire for the past. It’s even got a funny word: repristinisation!!

With regard to society, & especially with regard to Christianity, we need realism. God did not stop working in 323AD, but Christians had to faithfully respond to change. And change is what we are trying to deal with & think through.

Thanks Chris,

I’d like to discuss this issue. But to be fair to other users we should probably start a new thread.

Re: dialogue

[quote author="Warren Bird"][quote author="Glenn Slaven"]As I mentioned, the church is most powerful (that is most effective, not powerful in a political sense) when it is under persecution.  If we look at the 1st few centuries of the church, it was most authentic before Constantine authorised it, from then on there was a corrupting effect on the mixing of church and state.

I can’t claim to have studied church history in great detail, but I wonder if this comment is actually correct. The church has been very effective at other times. The Reformation, for one, was not a time of persecution in the sense that I think we have in mind in this discussion. The English revival of the 18th Century was similarly not a time of persecution, but was a time of great spiritual power in the visible church.

What I meant was that it was more authentic before Constantine at the time.  I didn’t mean to say that the church has been going downhill from there, the reformation & the many revivals are obvious evidence of the church being authentic & effective.  That was a sudden change that was due to a dramatic change in the status of the church.  The church has progressed since then.  Sorry I may not have been totally clear what I meant.  Chris, as Jeremy mentioned if you want to debate whether the church was corrupted by the freedoms that Constantine gave we can start another thread.  Let me just say that the evidence is there for this.  The texts from the More College subject on Early Church History make good reading here.

[quote author="Warren Bird"]It limits God to say that His church is “most powerful” only under certain circumstances. He can and does empower the church in many different situations, exercising His sovereign freedom to carry out His purposes in His time and His way.

I never said He can’t do it any other time & we know that He does.  But the history does show that while revival has not always come from persecution, persecution has regularly brought revival.

[quote author="Warren Bird"]It’s just that I have heard others say over the years things like “what the church needs is a good dose of persecution” and I simply cannot accept that.

I wouldn’t limit God to say that He wouldn’t use persecution to fix His church, He’s done it in the past.  But I’m not saying that that is what we need here.

[quote author="Warren Bird"]I take it from this (and other passages such as 1 Timothy 2) that we should work and pray for a society in which the church is not persecuted.

Absolutely, but as long as there are non-Christians there will be persecution, to one degree or another.

[quote author="Warren Bird"]I don’t know if that is going to be humanly possible in Iraq. Hopefully Iraqi Christians will be pro-active about their role in a future government or their place in the future Iraqi society. I hope it is just media “story telling” that gives the impression that they are simply weeping and cowering because the “freedoms” they had under Saddam are now gone. The freedom to keep silent when your countrymen were being tortured and slaughtered hardly seems consistent with Biblical injunctions not to abuse Christian freedom as an excuse for evil. Anyway, I don’t know much about Iraqi Christianity and, like I C Dimly says in another forum, you can’t trust what you read in the papers, so I don’t want to be too judgmental - they need encouragement and support over there, not accusations about how they behaved under that tyrant. I really have no idea what it must have been like and don’t want to contemplate some of the pressures they would have been put under to make compromises - “Support Saddam or your daughter gets raped” sort of pressure.

Agree 100%

[quote author="Warren Bird"]What I do know about is Australia, where I think we do face some threats to our freedoms as Christians. I think we take them for granted and risk having them slip away from under our noses if we aren’t careful. The Bible tells us to be at prayer for our governing authorities and I fear that we don’t do this enough any more. I’d like to finish this post by sharing a prayer that I have written and used sometimes in church on this very issue:

Heavenly Father, please grant that we will be governed by men and women who respect and cherish freedom of speech and worship, so that Christians in Australia will always be allowed to meet and to preach the gospel of Christ without breaking the law or being regarded as undesirable. Protect us from the tyranny that is spreading around the world as Islam and post-modern thinking gain influence and power. May our society be ordered peaceably, so that truth and justice will be the hallmarks of our governing institutions at all levels – Federal, State and local. In the name of the one before whom every knee will one day bow, the Lord of all, Jesus Christ. Amen.

Amen to that, that is beautiful Warren, we need to pray for our leaders, Christian & non-Christian.

Glenn

re Jeremy’s Islamic Dialogue Debate

I think it is interesting that as evangelical Christians our comments on Islam are based on the assumption that ‘true Islam’ is that which is based primarily on the authority of the Koran. Of course while we evangelicals believe in the Reformation principle of ‘Sola Scripture’ regarding the Christian faith, I’m not sure its wise to get into a debate about what is ‘true Islam’. I certainly don’t believe in a ‘true Islam’ at all!!

Of course in Islam, as in Christianity, there are Muslims who believe in other sources of authority other than the Book. The most well-known would be the Sufis, who put more emphasis on personal experience of God. (That said I should also point out that some militant Muslims do not regard Sufis as true Muslims.) Jeremy Halcrowe

Yeah, this is interesting.
I wonder if this is a point that we can start from in our dialogue with Muslim friends/neighbours/colleagues. Maybe starting with our common “belief” in Jesus as a “messenger” of God. Then maybe discuss what “Islam” means: submission to the will of God. Jesus is the only true and perfect Islamic, in this case. He embodies “true Islam”.
The Reformation issue/sola Scripture is important to discuss. Where do Muslims we know get their understanding of how to submit to God’s will?
The Reformation occurred when people questioned the teachings and authority of the church. They began reading the Scriptures for themselves, and in them, met Jesus, through the work of the Holy Spirit. A couple of weeks ago a missionary from Pakistan spoke at my church and told us about a Muslim who read the Koran and discovered Jesus. He wanted to find out more, so he started reading the Bible. He became a Christian through this, and thus truly submitted to God’s will. Of course that’s when the persecution began for that man, but it will end in a most glorious way!
Let’s encourage Muslims to become “reformed” and think about what they have based their beliefs on. It may lead to a deeper questioning of what “submission to the will of God” looks like, and thus lead them to Jesus. Discuss what makes scripture reliable, such as eyewitnesses; the importance of reading it for yourself and not just accepting what someone else tells you; discuss the nature of prophecy, and show how Jesus fulfills OT prophecy using the NT (eg Matthew’s Gospel); and pray that God will reveal himself to the hearts of people who truly long to please him, but have been led astray by the circumstances of their lives. Of course, couple this with your testimony of how God has worked in your life and revealed the truth of Jesus in the Scriptures to you.
“True Islam” is following Christ, as it is through him alone that God the Father offers us salvation. Pray that there will be an “influx” of these people into the Kingdom of God.

Excellent point Jeannine. I really like that thought: Jesus is the ‘true Islamic’.

[quote author="Jeremy Halcrow"]Excellent point Jeannine. I really like that thought: Jesus is the ‘true Islamic’.

I agree, it is a very interesting way of looking at it.

By the way this address ( Bishop Nazir Ali’s address for Opportunity International given in Sydney ) has some very interesting background information on Islam & some current conflicts.

Glenn

I thought I could just point out that we don´t have to dialogue with Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Atheists or whatever for any other purpose than to understand and to offer respect.  We can gain from such dialogue, without giving anything up. They also could gain, who knows?
Heck, I have even had dialogue with Country Music fans,, it doesn´t mean I am listening to Slim Dusty though.