What christian church history has continually shown us over the last 2000 years is this, when a denomination refuses to do the hard yards and begins to compromise through the endeavor of pleasing men instead of God, it ends up drying up on the vine and eventually dying.

We have compromise happening now with the current Anglican church under the leadership of Rowan Williams. Under Mr Williams leadership the Anglican church now has gay clergy, gay marriage and woman bishops it is though and because of these very compromises that over time this denomination (Rowan’s Anglican church) will end up drying up on the vine and eventually dying.

Case in point the Australian Uniting Church. In Australia this denomination compromised the gospel by watering down important aspects of it and look at them now 2008, 70 percent of their congregation are 65 and over.

Its great what the Sydney Anglican leader Archbishop Dr Peter Jensen did when he helped found the Global Anglican Future Conference in Jerusalem last month, he through this has helped to keep the true Anglican church alive.

No body can like a true angli ...can..

Gafcon has nothing to say on female ordination ( so as not to upset, The Provinces of Uganda, kenya , Rwanda and the diocese of Pittsburgh.. The Bishop who made a great impact at the Conference the , Doctor Nazir Ali was the bishop who appointed the first woman Archdeacon in the Church of ENgland.it

GAFCON can’t agree what heterosexual marriage is..was it made an unbreakable covenant by Our Lord or not ? Gafcon knowingly allows Anglo-Catholic bishops to sign the declaration whose practices all violate several of the 39 articles! Furthermore the Church of England in South Africa were allowed to atend and they have legalised lay presidency.

Doctor Jensen is a very sincere Christian gentleman, but I fear there are flaws in the foundational structure of GAFCON.

[yawn]

Robert, you are getting very tiresome.

I think you’ve made the same point about 30 times.

Yes, we have heard you!

Its strange to keep harping on about this here when the official policies of the diocese of Sydney are against the ordination of women as presbyters/priests and are not supportive of clergy who have remarried after divorce.

You seem to miss the obvious point, which is clear to most observers. GAFCON is a line in the sand, from which conservatives are seeking to move the Anglican Communon back to what they see as biblical standards. (For a fair proportion of GAFCONites they would include those issues you list).

John Iurincich - 09 July 2008 11:02 PM

Case in point the Australian Uniting Church. In Australia this denomination compromised the gospel by watering down important aspects of it and look at them now 2008, 70 percent of their congregation are 65 and over.

Hi John,

Welcome to these forums.

I don’t want to take us too far off topic but I think it is worthwhile saying that there are healthy and thriving evangelically-oriented Uniting Church congregations in Sydney and elsewhere.

From the 2006 NCLS figures, my own evangelically-oriented UC congregation in southern Sydney, for example, has significantly better growth and retention rates for teens and young adults than the SydAng averages.

As far as I know, in Queensland and northern NSW and probably in South Australia as well, evangelical Christians are the majority in the UC.

The Uniting Church’s governance is based largely on the Presbyterian model with an interlocking series of councils of elders or presbyters
in the New Testament’s sense of that word, rather than the way some people have used the word in later times.8-)

It can be hard for people used to a hierarchical church system to appreciate the difference to a system that is really based on elders’ councils. 

Grace & peace,
Terry
[P.S. Apologies in advance if anyone tries to visit our website at the moment; it may still be in the process of reconstruction]

Good to hear your comments Terry and appreciate your positive comments re eldership and comparison with the episcopal/congregational model of our Anglican friends. I note your ommision of Victoria! However there are a few Confessing members (in particular Ross Carter and Max Champion) here we enjoy working with. North West Tassie also has evangelical UCA types.

Not sure where this goes....

I wondered whether people had read Tom Wright’s latest piece on Gafcon?
Very critical, including of Peter Jensen. Trying to shore up UK evangelicals against Gafcon encroachments, but at some loss of credibility to himself - just how long to continue wringing your hands over the NA situation and failing to do anything effective in support?

I do think this comment worthy of some discussion:

.............This can be seen from the fact that the small-but-loud English group are extremely low-church and anti-social-justice-as-part-of-the-gospel, whereas most of the American reasserters are high-church with strong social concern as part of their kingdom-theology. This is a coalition held together with string

I’ve always thought the Americans a rabble with all their different jurisdictions, ministers called “Father”, swags of Bishops and Archbishops ruling personal fiefdoms - very messy.

As far as I know, in Queensland and northern NSW and probably in South Australia as well, evangelical Christians are the majority in the UC.

From my experience in QLD, the UC isn’t evangelical by any standard. But I’ve only visited a few myself, and I’ve had friends who have left it, but again only a few of them.

Dannii Willis - 10 July 2008 02:40 PM

From my experience in QLD, the UC isn’t evangelical by any standard. But I’ve only visited a few myself, and I’ve had friends who have left it, but again only a few of them.

Hi Dannii,
I never intended to imply that UC congregations are uniformly evangelical in Queensland, but assuming you have a normal definition of evangelical then you just need to get out more....8-)
Grace & peace,
Terry

David Palmer - 10 July 2008 02:36 PM

I do think this comment worthy of some discussion:

.............This can be seen from the fact that the small-but-loud English group are extremely low-church and anti-social-justice-as-part-of-the-gospel, whereas most of the American reasserters are high-church with strong social concern as part of their kingdom-theology. This is a coalition held together with string

If that coalition is held together with a string, how is the Anglican church (which is much broader) held together?

The diverse groups in GAFCON would seem to be held together by their high view of Jesus and his Word. I reckon they’ll survive.

But Jeremy is not the issue of Biblical Truth central to all this? There is not a hierarchy of heresy and I believe the unity shown at GAFCON was flawed ( and no doubt the fellowship was terrific) because of a failure to face the truth and examine genuine divisions.

In my analysis there are at least two Gospels at GAFCON.

You are saying to the World..we believe the Bible is the word of God and the sole authority...you must add.......but we can’t agree as to what in means in key areas of sexual morality, sacraments and worship.

That is a legitimate view and one offered in Christian love from an outsider.

Robert,

It is possible to make the same point with such monotonous regularity and apparent lack of engagement with others that whatever merits one’s positions may have is effectively undermined by the manner in which it is put.

I think by now we all understand your position on GAFCON.  You are certainly welcome to nuance or expand it but to simply repeat it ad nausuem really contributes little to the discussion or your case.

Is there anything else you would like to discuss (please!!)

Mark.

Robert ian Williams - 10 July 2008 05:58 PM

That is a legitimate view and one offered in Christian love from an outsider.

Hi Robert
The issue that Jeremy has raised (and he has been gentler towards you than some) is that you have made your views abundantly clear, numerous times, and others have sought to answer you, though clearly not to your satisfaction.  Christian love at some point requires that, having stated our case clearly, we then stop, because we respect the responsibility that others have equally with us as those who will give an account to God.  I think, respectfully, that with regard to GAFCON you have reached that point.
Bob

David Palmer - 10 July 2008 02:36 PM

Not sure where this goes....

I wondered whether people had read Tom Wright’s latest piece on Gafcon?
Very critical, including of Peter Jensen. Trying to shore up UK evangelicals against Gafcon encroachments, but at some loss of credibility to himself - just how long to continue wringing your hands over the NA situation and failing to do anything effective in support?

Very disappointing.  Even though Wright makes some good arguments for his own position with regard to strategy, he spoils it all by needless attacks on those who differ.  Was so stirred I’ve just emailed him at his Diocesan email address and urged him to retract some of the criticisms.  I wonder if he’ll reply!

Dear Bob,

I think ypu are a very wise man and absolutely agree with you. There is no one prepared to examine the issues surrounding GAFCON critically and one day they may very welll bitterly regret their position as regards truth . Which if it it is not absolute is not truth at all.....I just hope that they ask thenmselves whether what occured in Jerusalem is representative of Him who is truth, and to whom all of us will give account, more particularly those of us who claim to speak in his name. “ for judgement will begin with the household of God.”