Robert ian Williams - 18 June 2008 05:40 AM

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This is pre-figured in the OT , where priests who served the Sanctuary , abstained from sex when they were on duty.
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You miss in the text of Corinthians seven that Celibacy is a higher calling.
The Catholic church forbids no one to abstain from marriage if that is their call.
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Hi Robert

Thanks for your clarification regarding sacrifice.  However - I’m intrigued about a few things in your post.

Firstly, in the New Testament, doesn’t Jesus play the roll of the priest?  He is the one who intercedes, who has entered the holy place etc?  So isn’t it wrong to suggest that a modern priest/presbyter/minister replace the OT priest?  In fact, aren’t all Christians in the NT priests? Therefore it is wrong to call the modern priest to be celibate, because OT priests were?  In fact, doesn’t the NT assume that a deacon and overseer has a wife and family when it calls for these men to have only one wife, and manage their kids/families well?

Secondly, whilst I agree that singleness is encouraged by Paul in 1 Cor 7, he encourages it not because it’s abstaining from sex, but that it allows the person to focus more fully on serving Jesus.  So it’s not a call to celibacy, but a call to singleness (which I agree should result in celibacy).  And it’s a call for all Christians - not elders/priests/overseers etc.

Thirdly, where does the bible talk about giving up sex as a sacrifice?

Fourthly, though you aren’t arguing that sex is bad, it feels that your call that giving up sex is a sacrifice, and a “higher calling”, and a must for a priest is actually forbidding people from enjoying what God has given us.  And directly against 1 Tim 4:3.  I acknowledge you’ve already argued against this - but you are forbidding certain people from getting married.

Thanks for your time, and thoughtful input - is has been educational and thought provoking.

Mike

Pansy Lai - 14 June 2008 11:07 PM

However, single women under training, intending to go into full time ministry, often divert their energy into looking after their family once a husband and especially children come along. There is simply not enough time for a mum of young children to continue training and ministering in the capacity of a full time student / minister.
<snip>
I see that this will change in the next 5- 10 years as more and more women who were trained when they were younger return into the ministry work force once their young children grow up.

This post has been rattling around in my head for a couple of days - and I wanted to draw our attention back to it, as I think it is very significant.

So Pansy - thanks for your input, it has been very helpful.

I wonder how well our churches are doing providing work environments where Women can work.  When they are single.  When married.  Even with Kids.  Are we providing enough opportunities?  Are we being flexible enough?

If we want Women - in all situations - to be working for our churches - what can we do to encourage them?

A couple of observations from my own experience:

I note at MTC it is very rare for a married women to do the full 3/4 years.  It is even rarer for a married women with kids to do the full 3/4 years (almost unheard off I think).

I worked between 1996 - 2001 for the School of Computer Science and Engineering at UNSW.  Early on, women made up a very very small percentage of the students (I think < 10%).  Over those years we were able to increase this to (I think) 40% (though I’m struggling to remember actual numbers).  There were many reasons for this - but one of the main reasons was the school made big moves to encourage women.  From support groups, women only tutorial groups, councilors, child care facilities (at least at the Uni level) and specifically targeting women.

Theological education and working in churches is different from a Computer Science degree, but I do wonder if we are doing enough in our own contexts to encourage women.

Obviously a complex issue - but something worth thinking about.

Mike

Mike Doyle - 18 June 2008 01:47 PM

Pansy Lai - 14 June 2008 11:07 PM

However, single women under training, intending to go into full time ministry, often divert their energy into looking after their family once a husband and especially children come along. There is simply not enough time for a mum of young children to continue training and ministering in the capacity of a full time student / minister.
<snip>
I see that this will change in the next 5- 10 years as more and more women who were trained when they were younger return into the ministry work force once their young children grow up.

This post has been rattling around in my head for a couple of days - and I wanted to draw our attention back to it, as I think it is very significant.

So Pansy - thanks for your input, it has been very helpful.

I wonder how well our churches are doing providing work environments where Women can work.  When they are single.  When married.  Even with Kids.  Are we providing enough opportunities?  Are we being flexible enough?

If we want Women - in all situations - to be working for our churches - what can we do to encourage them?

A couple of observations from my own experience:

I note at MTC it is very rare for a married women to do the full 3/4 years.  It is even rarer for a married women with kids to do the full 3/4 years (almost unheard off I think).

I worked between 1996 - 2001 for the School of Computer Science and Engineering at UNSW.  Early on, women made up a very very small percentage of the students (I think < 10%).  Over those years we were able to increase this to (I think) 40% (though I’m struggling to remember actual numbers).  There were many reasons for this - but one of the main reasons was the school made big moves to encourage women.  From support groups, women only tutorial groups, councilors, child care facilities (at least at the Uni level) and specifically targeting women.

Theological education and working in churches is different from a Computer Science degree, but I do wonder if we are doing enough in our own contexts to encourage women.

Obviously a complex issue - but something worth thinking about.

Mike

Mike

A very interesting and thought provoking post, and perhaps worthy of a new thread - Encouraging (Married) Women into Vocational Ministry (or some such).

Bob

How do you know that all the Apostles travelled alone, Mr Denham?

The answer to Mr Doyle is that celibacy is a discipline....which can be dispensed from.

The argument that the Catholic Church forbidding marriage is wrong, because a Catholic has to listen to his Church and obey the power to bind and loose. He that hears you , hears me.

The Church the pillar and foundation of the truth has decided that the Presbyterate must be reserved ordinarily fro celibate men.

The clue to priestlty celibacy is in the OT and NT , just as infant baptism is not overtly explicit , it is there.

Robert ian Williams - 18 June 2008 05:32 PM

The argument that the Catholic Church forbidding marriage is wrong, because a Catholic has to listen to his Church and obey the power to bind and loose. He that hears you , hears me.

The Church the pillar and foundation of the truth has decided that the Presbyterate must be reserved ordinarily fro celibate men.

Thanks for the reply Robert.  Could you just clarify your argument for me?  I’m a little unfamiliar with the ideas and language - and so I’m struggling a little.

Are you saying that it is not wrong for the Catholic Church to forbid marriage (for Priests) because the Roman Catholic Church has been given the power to make such decisions?

And so 1 Tim 4 doesn’t apply - because presumably the people forbidding marriage there weren’t the Roman Catholic church, and so had no authority to forbid men to marry?

Mike

How do you know that all the Apostles travelled alone, Mr Denham?

Obviously they didn’t, because they had a believing sister/wife with them, as per 1 Cor 9:5; while Paul had Barnabas or Luke, or Silas or Timothy…

The tradition of the Mar Thoma Church says that Thomas made it to India, not with the other apostles.

Mike,

One suggestion for how the Roman Catholic Church could justify ignoring 1 Timothy 4 may have to do with the definition Robert gave earlier about Doctrinal issues v Disciplinary issues. It appears that some of the commands given in the Bible, such as head coverings, don’t have an enduring force, and are not considered part of the genuine dinky-di long-term abiding teaching of God, such as the trinity etc. Therefore since the church bound itself in a disciplinary issue to insist on head coverings and allowing marriage of deacons and elders under the apostles, it apparently is no longer binding on us because some other church leaders said it was no longer binding on us & introduced new binding rules saying it was OK to dispense with head coverings & not OK for priests or bishops to marry, because the apostle was giving only B-grade instructions not A-grade instructions at those points. However, if he had linked marriage of church leaders with the Trinity, or as a salvation issue, then the new bindings would not be valid because they would now be classed as A-grade rulings, not B-grade rulings. (A for Authority in Bible, B for Bishops can impose?)

In spite of the tongue in cheek (for which you must excuse my protestant bais...bias? how do you spell that word?), is this close to the mark Robert?

If it is close to the mark, then is it possible for a papal bull to loosen those bindings & rebind with a ruling that now it is OK for priests and bishops to be married?

Interestingly the Orthodox churches allow priests to be married, but not if they want to become the equivalent of a bishop.

& now for the trivia, I first met my regional bishop in a marriage support & encouragement group a short time after both of us were married to our first (& hopefully last) wives.

‘a papal bull” ..is that as in decree or as in rubbish?
he he he....
Gill.

Bob Cameron - 18 June 2008 04:38 PM

Mike Doyle - 18 June 2008 01:47 PM

I wonder how well our churches are doing providing work environments where Women can work.  When they are single.  When married.  Even with Kids.  Are we providing enough opportunities?  Are we being flexible enough?

If we want Women - in all situations - to be working for our churches - what can we do to encourage them?

(snip)

Theological education and working in churches is different from a Computer Science degree, but I do wonder if we are doing enough in our own contexts to encourage women.

Obviously a complex issue - but something worth thinking about.

Mike

Mike

A very interesting and thought provoking post, and perhaps worthy of a new thread - Encouraging (Married) Women into Vocational Ministry (or some such).

Bob

Good point, Mike. I’ve never thought of that. I always thought from the point of view of what women can do themselves to make themselves more available in ministry after marriage / children. I’m delighted that you guys agree that married women trained in ministry would be great pool of ministry work force to tap into! Definitely worth discussing.