If the diocesan mission begins with spiritual renewal...does Is 6 show me that spiritual renewal begins with repentance..if so , what then does this mean for the diocese? Geoff Taylor

Are you suggesting the Diocese needs to repent, Geoff? *evil grin*

If so, what does it need to repent of in your view?

spiritual renewal

I am keen to see how others view ‘spiritual renewal’ inlight of our commitment to the scriptures ,for there can be no value of ‘spiritual renewal’ without the witness of The Word brought to bear. The Word as a sharp sword may well cut to the marrow and, repentance is a major function of The Word...I am keener to find out others opinions and starting with a blank page than expressing any of my own..really what do you see Policy One meaning at a corporate level for our diocese? GT

G’day and blessings Geoff.

Repentance means to turn away from our sinfulness in what ever way that takes place. During the welsh revival the workers from mamy ship yards started to return tools that they had taken from work, there were huge piles of wheelbarrows, trolleys, shovels, timber and steel etc. So much stuff was being returned that some yards put up a sign,

“If God has told you to return what you have stolen, the management would like you to know that you are forgiven and for you to keep it”

I think Spiritual renewal for the diocsee starts on an individual level and involves us saying to God, “search me God, show me myself, change me” and to allow the Holy Spirit to truly guide our lives.

I think it means that when we have our church meetings, when we have our leaders meetings, we spend the first 20 minutes in serious prayer and worship to our Lord asking him to guide and direct the meeting so we can do what he wants us to do, and then get onto the business at hand, instead of perhaps a token prayer and then meeting and then some more token prayer along the ways of “bless what we have decided to do God”

I think we need to take another fresh look at who the “Holy Spirit” is, I know too many Christians who pay lip service to the “Holy Spirit” but don’t truly know him.

craig

Hello Geoff (and others),
[quote author="geoff taylor"]does Is 6 show me that spiritual renewal begins with repentance

I don’t quite see how Isaiah 6 deals with either spiritual renewal or repentance.
Perhaps you could explain your thinking here?
Why did you choose this passage?

spititual renewal

To Craig..please explain about understanding the Holy Spirit,...there is place I believe for not only individual but corporate repentance ..to see Spiritual renewal as simply an individual effort is to miss the deliberate nature of spiriual decision making. Is there a plan as deliberate for this policy as for the others.?
To Enkidu..In Is 6 Is. has an encounter with God(v4) that cleanses him afresh for service as he responds to God’s call(v8). He realises his own sinfulness as equal to the people he would minister to (v5). Is is renewde as a man ready to serve as he ahs been cleanesed thru this experience. He has been renewed in service of God. There are many indicators from this chapter about measuring spirituality, which I would be happy to develop should you wish.
The question still however remains..how does this diocese address the issue of spiritual renewal? I would also wish to ask ..is it sufficient to simply leave it all up to the individual? GT

Geoff, by understanding the Holy Spirit, I mean by knowing him as the third person of the God head and not some inate force. Many Christians I know do not know the Holy Spirit or that he is a person, and do not rely on the working of the Holy Spirit. (I"m not talking about “Pentecostalism” either)

Corperate’ness is only made up of individuals. If you go to a church wull of life, it’s because that church is made up with full of life individuals, the same goes with corperate repentance, if the individual is not repentant, then a corperate repentance can not take place.

Sometimes, and I do repeat “sometimes” when I am leading a service, and come to the confession, I say to the congregation “instead of saying we have sinned, say I have sinned etc etc, I ask forgiveness etc etc,”

Why ? because I am guilty of it myself, sometimes we can sit in the pew saying “we have sinned” only deep in our hearts thinking that someone else sitting in church is a worse sinner then me and needs forgiveness more than me”

I am sure it was Jonathon Edwards who said (I"m open to correction) “Revival will come only when individuals get revived and on fire for God”

It has to start on an individual basis, before it can happen in a corperate basis, and yes I do believe that there is a place for corperate repentance, such as is shown in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah.

Lets begin though with the prayer of Nehemiah “lord I confess my sin, Lord I confess my forebears sin, Lord I confess my nations sin - by starting with oursleves we avoid the finger pointing as you mentioned about Isaiah

Hope this clears things up.

Spiritual renewal

Craig thanks for the thoughts and really pleased to hear of the personal nature of the Holy Spirit ( cf Cor 3:18 & Eph 2:22....)
How can corporate renewal /repentance ever happen if it is simply done at individual level? Sure it is an axiom that corporate repentance/renewal is conducted by individuals but the conduit is the leadership ( Ezra9:1, 10:1).  So Craig I guess I am still asking should spiritual renewal be a deliberate action of leadership or simply the anecdotal response of personal devotion ? Craig ..I hope you have a Happy easter.

[quote author="Geoff Taylor"]In Is 6 Is. has an encounter with God(v4) that cleanses him afresh for service as he responds to God’s call(v8). He realises his own sinfulness as equal to the people he would minister to (v5). Is is renewde as a man ready to serve as he ahs been cleanesed thru this experience. He has been renewed in service of God.

In what way is this renewal different from “conversion,” aside from the fact that the person being renewed is already “converted”? Can this experience of Isaiah’s be translated to the situation we find ourselves in today?

I think there are ample grounds for arguing that the events described in Isa 6 are sufficiently unique that it would be difficult to justify building a theology for personal spiritual renewal based upon this text alone. Although Isaiah’s experience may reflect some things which could form the basis for such a theology, I don’t think it is presented as a paradigm for renewal.

I’m not saying that there is nothing to be learnt from Isa 6, just that I don’t think this is it.

I would argue that there are numerous other texts which form a more secure basis for understanding the requirements for spiritual renewal, and which probably include aspects not found in Isaiah’s theophany. These include, but are not restricted to, the role of the Holy Spirit.

And, of course, Isaiah’s personal experience in Isa 6 did not result in mass conversions. Quite the reverse--his task was to harden the hearts of his audience so they would not repent and so to ensure judgment!

[quote author="Geoff Taylor"]I guess I am still asking should spiritual renewal be a deliberate action of leadership or simply the anecdotal response of personal devotion?

I doubt that leadership could bring about spiritual renewal alone. If spiritual renewal is required, then the responsibility of leadership may be to convict the laity of the need for spiritual renewal. This must begin with leadership leading by example, and with much prayer. I also suspect that an awareness of the lostness of the world and the severity of sin are things which are lacking in the modern world, even within the church. Complacency is our enemy!

Spiritual Renewal

Enkidu...thanks so much for your thoughts and answers.
Surely conversion is the first step in spiritual renewal The problem with either using Is 6 or not is deciding whether it is prescriptive or simply descriptive.  A problem many other texts too wrestle with. However, if the Bible is God’s living word ,to see Is 6 merely as descriptive ( that is about Is alone ..describing what happens to him..and therefore not for me) then this can hinder God from speaking to me thru it...I guess I would maybe be more bold therefore to ‘mine’ this passage and allow God to speak to me thru His living word. I would be really pleased to hear what passages you feel are more appropriate.
Shouldn’t leadership be first convicted by the Spirit that they too may then guide those who they are given to lead? Leaders in the Bible are guides, in the world they exercise influence, so I would expect that leadership guides their followers in the Word and then they are influencing them ..in this instance to spiritual renewal..but it has fist started as they have been guided by God. Acts 8: 26-40 may help on this point of leadership that guides.
I am not sure I follow your comment on complacency, would you be happy to fill this out please?

Hello again Geoff!

[quote author="Geoff Taylor"]Surely conversion is the first step in spiritual renewal

No doubt, but when you originally said that “the diocesan mission begins with spiritual renewal,” I assumed you were referring to renewal of those already within the church (mainly because the alternative is rather too obvious--of course the first step to spiritual renewal is conversion).

So if “spiritual renewal” does refer to the renewal of those who are already Christians, is there to be no discernible difference between this renewal and conversion?

[quote author="Geoff Taylor"]However, if the Bible is God’s living word ,to see Is 6 merely as descriptive ( that is about Is alone ..describing what happens to him..and therefore not for me) then this can hinder God from speaking to me thru it

I have a few difficulties with this view. First, to say that something is merely descriptive implies that it is in some way less important or relevant than if it were prescriptive. I would argue that this is not the case. If a text is descriptive, does this mean it has nothing to teach me? As I said in a previous post, I think Isa 6 has much to say to us, but I do not think it should be understood prescriptively to define the process of spiritual renewal.

Second, there is a danger that, in assuming that all texts operate prescriptively, too much could be read out of the text. The result would then be that we draw conclusions which are not ultimately warranted by a fair reading of the text itself.

Third, expecting a descriptive text to operate prescriptively may result in us overlooking the descriptive element and thus failing to notice the function of the text in its context. In short, we may find meanings not explicitly in the text whilst missing the true meaning. We are in danger of moving from hearing God speak to putting words in his mouth!

Once again, I am not saying that Isa 6 has nothing to say to us about spiritual renewal. I just would not want to read it as a paradigm for spiritual renewal.

I would be really pleased to hear what passages you feel are more appropriate.

In terms of “spiritual renewal” of Christians, I would think almost any of the NT exhortations about how to live as a Christian. Passages such as Phil 2:1-11, 12-18; Eph 5. Exhortations to grow in love for God and others, to be filled with the Spirit, etc.

Shouldn’t leadership be first convicted by the Spirit that they too may then guide those who they are given to lead?

A good point, I quite agree that they should be so convicted. After all, if the leaders are not it is unlikely they shall lead in this way.

Leaders in the Bible are guides…

I think the point may be more how the leaders guide rather than whether they guide or not. I think that biblical leaders are those leaders who are themselves willing to get down into the dirt with everyone else, lead by example, lead through service as the Messiah himself did. Leadership which is domineering, manipulative, and self-interested is not biblical leadership.

I am not sure I follow your comment on complacency…

By complacency I mean that we, as Christians, tend to be too comfortable with both sin and God. By this I mean that we tend too easily to underrate the significance of most sin and we downplay the greatness of God. We are not struck deeply enough by our own spiritual poverty, let alone the desperate need of those around us, and so we are complacent.

I hope some of this makes sense. Sleep deprivation is not conducive to coherent thought!