THE Victorian Government has been given three options to modernise abortion laws in the state.
All of them will decriminalise abortion, which is now performed in Victoria under a common law ruling which says it is only legal if it protects the health of the woman.
The Victorian Law Reform Commission, at the request of the state government last year, has delivered a report examining ways to move abortion from the crimes act and make it legal for women and their doctors under certain circumstances.
The first option will give an individual doctor the authority to determine whether an abortion was necessary because pregnancy posed a risk to the woman.
The second gives the woman herself the authority to make that determination, for an abortion up to 24 weeks gestation.
The third would give women the power to choose an abortion at any stage of her pregnancy.
The commission’s chairman Neil Rees said the options reflected a range of concerns put to the commission in submissions.
“The major differences between the three options, or models, are the identity of the final decision maker and the circumstances in which an abortion is lawful,” he said.
The commission received more than 500 submissions, about 80 per cent from anti-abortionists, he said.
However, Professor Rees said the commission’s research showed that did not accurately represent the Victorian community, of which 10 per cent strongly oppose abortion.
The government will hold briefings and discussions on the options over the next few weeks and regardless of which option is eventually put to parliament in a bill later this year, MPs will have a conscience vote.
State Attorney-General Rob Hulls said the change in law was not aimed at increasing or decreasing the number of abortions in the state, but at simply bringing the law in line with existing clinical practice.
Lev 17: “‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood… For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life.”
A foetus has blood yes? Then it’s alive.
I was just having a ponder about this and it seems to me that although a foetus has blood an embryo does not, I’m not sure of the timing for the labels but the early stages of an embryo does not include any cell specialisation and so no blood.
So does that mean that an embryo is not alive?
David said
If we are sinful from conception [Psalm 51], we must be living to be sinning though I spose you could tell me that Ephesians 2 says the sinner is dead.
I think in the context I think that King David was reflecting on how sinfulness is so part of who he is that it must have been apart of him from the beginning, however I don’t think Psalm 51 is telling us that we are guilty of sin from conception. So I don’t think it suggests that we are alive from conception but rather our very construction has sinfulness built in.
Kevin it is hard to passionately defend the unborn against early termination if Scripture doesn’t compell us to do so, or maybe it does and we just haven’t thought of them. What passages drive you to want to fight against abortion?
Kevin it is hard to passionately defend the unborn against early termination if Scripture doesn’t compell us to do so, or maybe it does and we just haven’t thought of them. What passages drive you to want to fight against abortion?
Hi Craig,
I have always thought that the sentiments ( let alone the commandment ) of “You shall not murder” might have some bearing on the subject.
I don’t have a verse about drinking coffee - yet I still do that “passionately”. We must not treat the Bible as a spiritual Wikopedia with ‘ready answers’ for every possible question we can come up with - not even if we spend time debating how many angels can fit on the tip of a needle. O wait, that’s already been done in the middle ages - before google came along.
I was just having a ponder about this and it seems to me that although a foetus has blood an embryo does not, I’m not sure of the timing for the labels but the early stages of an embryo does not include any cell specialisation and so no blood.
So does that mean that an embryo is no alive?
I’m not sure. Biblically speaking, locusts aren’t alive. I’m not sure whether the Hebrews would have considered embryos, things that one day would have blood, alive before they actually did.
We’re talking about the first 5-6 weeks remember. Anything after that is definitely killing a living human.
I have always thought that the sentiments ( let alone the commandment ) of “You shall not murder” might have some bearing on the subject.
Murder in the Bible is only ever applied to people after birth. The termination of an embryo or a feotus is not murder in any human law or in the Bible.
So maybe if you are against abortion you need to look harder at scripture to see if it agrees with you.
We must not treat the Bible as a spiritual Wikopedia with ‘ready answers’ for every possible question we can come up with
I agree, but when it comes to abortion, if you are going to stand up for God and condemn it, you had better show that God supports your point of view from scripture. I don’t think the Bible gives us just cause to fight this issue unless you can show otherwise. I would be keen to see a solid argument if you have one.
Murder in the Bible is only ever applied to people after birth
I would suggest that if that is so, then it is ‘descriptive’ of what happened in various instances to certain individuals.
I would further suggest that what is ‘prescriptive’ for all of us is “You shall not murder”.
Craig, by putting forward restricted limitations on ‘when life’ begins according to man’s interpretation of events, I think that we are placing limits on God - who is the author of life - not ‘delayed life’. Even if we don’t have a ‘set verse’ to quote - I think we can rely on God’s ‘vibe’ about it - just as the early Christians did.
I’ll have to leave it there for now, as I need to go out.
Have you read John Piper on abortion? His church addresses this issue at least once per year. Piper has even spent time in gaol [he thinks it was a jail, but] through being arrested for peaceful protesting.
I’d be interested if you found his arguments convincing.
I reckon my two grandsons and the one in my daughter in law’s tummy are all human beings and that Grandchild No 3 [granddaughter would be nice, but boys are terrific, too] is a human being in the same way that Jerome and Hamish and you and I are.
And I understand God loves and cares for human beings and wants us to as well. He certainly doesn’t want Australians to kill about 100,000 of them a year, nor Americans to kill 3 million a year just because we don’t have names for them, yet.
Thanks David, as the suggested site has only audio versions of the sermons (as far as I can see) I’ll try to listen to one of them as soon as I’m able.
Kevin
by putting forward restricted limitations on ‘when life’ begins according to man’s interpretation of events, I think that we are placing limits on God
I agree that we shouldn’t determine when life begins acording to man’s interpretation of events, because as a scientist I would say it is at conception, but as a Christian I want to let God tell me when life begins.
So far on this thread we have discovered that Scripture tells us, God gives the ‘spirit of life’ to people and this is done as breath first enters their nostrils (Genesis 2:7). And if a human has pumping blood then they have life. As Dannii has pointed out
Lev 17: “‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood… For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life.”
However before a human has developed a heart to pump blood around it’s body we are yet to mention a passage that suggest that people are indeed considered by God to be alive.
What we have also mentioned on this thread is that Exodus 21:22-25 may be suggesting that if the life of a feotus is taken then that may be considered murder (take life for life), however the passage is not clear as to whether it is the life of the pregant woman or of the feotus in mention. So there is no strong argument for or against as of yet.
Sorry, Craig
I think this link is better, because it gives you the choice to read, listen or view.
You seem to be taking a rather literalist approach in this quest.
I think the whole tenor of the Bible is against us killing people, though there is divinely sanctioned execution in both Old and New Testaments, but this is not people killing their unborn because they have come at an inconvenient time, or because they may spoil the lifestyle they have becoem accustomed to.
On some issues, it is really clear what the Bible means to say. You have explicit verses that are clear as crystal. But on others, you need to know the Bible well, and then nut out what the vibe of the thing is.
For example. Try to find a verse to support sola Scriptura. But an overview of the whole Bible shows that it is telling us it is the Word of God in the way that nothing else is. It has an authority that nothing else has.
There may not be a silver bullet verse on abortion, but the Bible as a whole tells us to respect life, that life is formed in the womb [Psa 139], etc.
THE Rudd Government will face fierce backlash from Christian groups if it lifts a ban which prevents international aid being used for abortion services, Nationals Senator Ron Boswell has warned.
The Labor caucus has been asked to debate the issue and recommend whether the ban, put in place by the previous Howard government, should be lifted.
Senator Boswell said there was no need for Australia to lift the ban and warned the Government would face backlash from the Christian community if it did.
“I don’t want this to happen and there has been no country that has come to us and specifically said we want aid to fund abortions,” Senator Boswell said on ABC radio.
“As far as (Prime Minister Kevin) Rudd is concerned, he cuddled up to the churches for the last election if he does this to him then they’ll turn upon him.”
West Australian Liberal MP Mal Washer said scrapping the ban would save the lives of disadvantaged women overseas and Senator Boswell should “grow up”.
“If at the end of the day we let people die because of people’s bigotry, I find that repugnant.
“People who disagree with that, I don’t want them voting for me, quite frankly.”
Dr Washer said lifting the “amoral” ban would save lives, as many women died after resorting to an unsafe abortion.
“And a much bigger percentage have horrific long-term bad consequences because of it,” he said.
“We would not accept that in Australia. We insist that in Australia women get good abortion advice, and a lot of that would perhaps stop women having unnecessary abortions.
“If they feel it’s necessary for whatever reason, at least they get safe abortions so the chances of dying are pretty remote.
“Let’s treat women overseas with the same dignity and decency as we would our own women in Australia.
Parliamentary Secretary for International Development Assistance Bob McMullan said debate was welcome.
“There are people who share Senator Boswell’s reasonably extreme view of this ... but there are a large bulk of people who don’t feel so passionately and there are people who feel the other way. You cannot base this decision based on your judgment about votes,” he said on ABC radio.
“We’ll have a discussion we will make a decision and then we’ll get on with it.”
Phillip Jensen’s staged chat with Kel Richards on Abortion is worth watching, Craig and others. He argues that abortion should only be done in extreme, rare cases, not willy-nilly and says we should not call a foetus a baby, nor call abortion murder, though he did not object to “killing.”
Does anyone know when in Australia the last person was prosecuted for an illegal abortion or if a doctor was disciplined professionally for carrying one out?
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