Hi Owen,

Owen Atkins - 20 April 2008 08:20 AM

So, until I find something useful from the Bible that will allow me to treat gays as I would anyone else, without the requirement to shun, kill or cure them, I shall veer to personal experience.

It’d be great to engage in this conversation in more detail, but a quick comment will have to do for the moment.

In the OT the “death penalty” is not restricted to homosexuality. It includes, among other things, wayward kids who dishonour their parents. Why is this important? Because it tells you there is a broader context to these OT laws than simply killing the offending person (whether it’s homosexuality, dishonouring parents or other things). In the NT this broader context of the OT laws is taken up and, because it is fulfilled in Christ, it undergoes an important change.

1 Cor 15:11-13 is vital here. It alludes to these OT death penalties for certain sins, and then, instead of repeating the command to kill people, changes it to casting the persistently and publicly evil *Christian brother or sister* from the congregation. And, Paul says, it is not his place to judge those outside the church. God will judge. So there is a different Biblical expectation in the way we should treat sin inside the church and outside.

The second point I want to make is this: do we really believe that living a holy life is not only what God calls us to do, but at the same time, it’s actually for our good? Then, insisting that homosexuality (or greed, drunkenness, any other forms of sexual immorality) is outside of God’s creative intention for humanity is actually life-affirming, isn’t it?

Owen Atkins - 20 April 2008 08:20 AM

Quoth David A

Owen, if we let personal experience be the main factor in what we learn and who we are, we won’t learn much and we won’t get a clear picture of ourselves (or anyone else).

Truth
You’re not going to get much of an arguement from me here. but what you will get if we play Bible only rules is an inevitable drfit to “kill em” or regard em as abomination”. That’s the Readers Digest version from the Bible.
it doesn’t match with my personal experience. For me, that needs resolving. In OT times they were to be put to death. In NT times they were to be shunned, and regarded as adulterers and sorcerers. Sorcerers and adulterers and I suspect gays were to be cured. But I haven’t seen this work. I haven’t seen anything in the way of credible therapy for them. I have however seen them been badly treated because they are supposed to be either sick or evil. So, until I find something useful from the Bible that will allow me to treat gays as I would anyone else, without the requirement to shun, kill or cure them, I shall veer to personal experience.
Unfortunately I have seen the arguements for treating gays with respect made from the Bible, but they haven’t held water against the plainer, more explicit anti-gay statements therein.
Any clues David?

Owen, just how narrowly do you read the bible??

The advocates of “let’s kill the homos” are both ignorant and disobedient.

Try

Romans 3:23 (ESV)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,.

and

John 3:16-17 (ESV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 

John 3:19 (ESV)
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 

1 Cor. 6:9-11 (ESV)
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Cor. 12:20-21 (ESV)
For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish—that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder.  [21] I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced.

Owen, the faction that calls for hatred of homosexuals is a small one, but is vocal and fractious. Howeverwrong they may be, homosexuality is still a sin, and like other sins (like gossip) it needs to be dealt with.

I heard of an anglican minister who gave members of his church who were also Masons a choice: leave the masons or leave the congregation. You can imagine the response.

Owen, if you want the attitude of fellow christians to be different, then start by showing the love commanded of us to all - and speak the truth with love. If you leave it to your personal experience you’ll remain on the sidelinesz as a commentator (or critic).

david
The homo-hating mob isn’t all that small. The closer a group gets to being fundy the more they get to dislike gays. There are plenty of such groups around and they seem to be proliferating.

And, the NT still does single out gays as abomination, and this does raise issues.
Not for me insofar as I cannot see how any one sin is worse than any other. It appears you are the same so we don’t have an arguement on this account. The verses you have cited are ones that are often cited and that is good. There should be weight, I think, placed on them. Adulterers are also abomination and Jesus attitude to that was well demonstrated in the tale about the woman taken in adultery. And maybe among the Syd Angs there isn’t an anti gay cadre of any magnitude, but plenty of others have. I don’t have to work hard to encounter it up here. But I need to keep in mind that the question was raised over Syd-Angs and I am not one and am speaking from both a diff position in both place and belief.

I’ll think a bit about your words re exclusively speaking from experience. In fact in work, for example, I speak both from experience as well as from established frameworks for my sector, and refer to these frequently. That is, I am accused of being almost geeky (actually- I am often called geeky, nothing almost about it) about referring to research and best practice.
The same should hold true in this. Your criticism holds therefore. Thankyou. I will, however not rush in. I am familiar with what happens when people rely exclusively on their interpretation of the Bible as their only resource. (you aren’t suggesting this, but I will still remain on guard) Working in a Christian agency taught me much and not all of it was good.
I would add also that my regard for my fellow humans is probably more born out of the Bible and jesus urging in my life than my natural inclination. natively I am probably some sort of hyper bleak Calvinist as I regard our species as despicable and vile. I’m not particularly impressed by us at all. Work has taught me .......... ah well, that is another long and dull tale.

Owen Atkins - 20 April 2008 07:54 PM

david
The homo-hating mob isn’t all that small. The closer a group gets to being fundy the more they get to dislike gays. There are plenty of such groups around and they seem to be proliferating.

And reduction in the number of Caribbean pirates is directly linked to the melting of the snows of Kilimanjaro.

Really, you’re wandering in a fog until you ask whether or not these people are accurately applying Scripture.

We don’t get anywhere by talking about crazies. That’s why I asked the question in the OP about the public attitude of Sydney Anglicans towards homosexuality. You can argue until the moon turns blue about whether or not a generalized group of crazy people adopts a generalized attitude towards homosexuals and happens to quote the Bible, and you may back it up with personal bad experiences that you’ve had.

But that’s why I deliberately ask about the public position of Sydney Anglicans with regard to homosexuality, and what it ought to be on the basis of Scripture.

I’m not particularly asking individuals to share personal bad experiences, even if those personal bad experiences happen to involve the quoting of Scripture.

True Gordo
and I think I spoke to that later in that post....

You did, OA, and you must see the bleakest of bleak. Enough to make you a hyper-Calvinist indeed.

Owen Atkins - 20 April 2008 07:54 PM

david
The homo-hating mob isn’t all that small. The closer a group gets to being fundy the more they get to dislike gays. There are plenty of such groups around and they seem to be proliferating.

Numbers please.

DA
Swing a cat here and you’ll hit one no worries. The churches are going fundy at a rate of knots, via the pentacostal route. Is it diff there?
As for numbers, unless the Syd Ang growth aims are going somewhere, then Hillsong et al are still the big growth groups, and they love the idea of curing gays via exhorcism etc.

G’day Owen.

As for numbers, unless the Syd Ang growth aims are going somewhere, then Hillsong et al are still the big growth groups, and they love the idea of curing gays via exhorcism etc.

There is a ministry in Hillsong that was started under the direction of CLC Waterloo. It was and is to my knowledge headed by a someone who came out of the Gay scene and become a Christian. He spoke to us at college in 1999 about the need to engage with gays with love. And not expect it to be a quick turnaround / conversion. He said quoting Scripture to them about the abomination of their sinfulness was not the way to convert them as many were already under a cloud of condemnation anyway.

It seems to me that in the NT the call to repent is always to Gods people. The preaching of grace is what the preachers preach to those who are not. So perhaps we need to preach more about the grace of God to all and allow the Holy Spirit to do the convicting work.

Owen Atkins - 21 April 2008 12:28 AM

DA
Swing a cat here and you’ll hit one no worries. The churches are going fundy at a rate of knots, via the pentacostal route. Is it diff there?
As for numbers, unless the Syd Ang growth aims are going somewhere, then Hillsong et al are still the big growth groups, and they love the idea of curing gays via exhorcism etc.

This won’t do Owen. Numbers please.

David I’m not sure what you want - do you expect Owen to conduct a formal phone poll or something, calling the various churches and asking questions like “On a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 is strongly agree and 5 is strongly disagree, how would you rate the statement ‘Your church is fundamentalist’”?

Luke Stevens - 21 April 2008 12:41 PM

David I’m not sure what you want - do you expect Owen to conduct a formal phone poll or something, calling the various churches and asking questions like “On a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 is strongly agree and 5 is strongly disagree, how would you rate the statement ‘Your church is fundamentalist’”?

I want to know how Owen knows that there are many churches with “homo-haters” and that the numbers are growing. I could equally assert that the numbers are small.

In fact a poll would be a good idea. Perhaps it could be included in the next Church Life Survey. A question regarding homosexuality was included in the last one, and quite a number indicated their belief that homosexuality was sin etc. This was portrayed in the SMH as homophobia. But the next survey could include questions such as “Do you think God hates homosexuals and lesbians?”

I think that gays are not all the same. Some can be converted to a heterosexual path, and many, I am sure some cannot. For some gays it is inconceivable to be attracted to the opposite sex. (I guess I am talking gay and lesbian here)

Then the Church must ask of Christian gays/lesbians that they refrain from any sexual intercourse, unless they marry someone from the opposite sex.
read
Religious tolerance

I think this is difficult for these people because of their natural weakness/agressiveness, and loneliness, they need to cling to “someone”. For them the only plausible possibility is same sex partners. They cannot attract the opposite sex, or are not attracted to them, as partners, so they succumb.

In a previous topic, I posted a weblink, which said that a physiological error in the brain region disposed people to homosexual tendancies. And this was backed up by research notes from a Californian Uni.

Ken Austin - 21 April 2008 03:32 PM

I think that gays are not all the same. Some can be converted to a heterosexual path, and many, I am sure some cannot. For some gays it is inconceivable to be attracted to the opposite sex. (I guess I am talking gay and lesbian here)

Then the Church must ask of Christian gays/lesbians that they refrain from any sexual intercourse, unless they marry someone from the opposite sex.
read
Religious tolerance

I think this is difficult for these people because of their natural weakness/agressiveness, and loneliness, they need to cling to “someone”. For them the only plausible possibility is same sex partners. They cannot attract the opposite sex, or are not attracted to them, as partners, so they succumb.

In a previous topic, I posted a weblink, which said that a physiological error in the brain region disposed people to homosexual tendancies. And this was backed up by research notes from a Californian Uni.

Ken, you seem to contradict yourself here. If it’s merely a brain function then nothing can be done about it, and it beyond the question of morality.

Any homosexual or lesbian who comes to Christ is like the rest of us… we must refrain from sin, and seek each other’s help to do so. Paul put it like this...1 Cor. 6:9-11 (ESV)
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

David, I don’t think I am contradicting myself. Did you read the link?

A predisposition to homosexuality is like a predisposition to heterosexuality. The question is whether people use restraint or not. All I said was, that this was what does happen, due to our weaknesses.

God wants people to restrain themselves from sexual intercourse, outside of marriage.

But if a person is born with no desire for the opposite sex, because their brain cortex is not the right size (as the article stated):  then it is even more difficult for them to bear.

Here is an extract from the link: http://www.freeessays.cc/db/27/hec29.shtml
(unfortunately the link will not allow people to read it I have found when I tried to get back in)

Such sex differentiation of the brain’s structure is called sexual dimorphism. . (LeVay/ Hamer 22) The first significant observation of sexual dimorphism performed in an animal laboratory. Roger A. Gorski, a professor at University of California, Los Angeles, conducted an experiment on rats. In 1978, Gorski examined the rat’s hypothalamus, a region at the base of its brain that is involved in instinctive behaviors and regulation of metabolism. He discovered there is a group on front of the hypothalamus is several times larger in millimeter of the male rats compared to the female rats. The cell group is very small but it could be easily observed on a stained slice when being viewed under a microscope.
More interestingly, Gorski’s finding applied to the sexual orientation between males and females. That particular group of cell is known as the medial preoptic are has been involved in the sexual behaviors typically displayed in males. For instance, if there is a male rat has a injury medial preoptic area, he apparently couldn’t indifferent to sex with another female.
From the study of Gorski and his co-workers, we now know the androgen is the typical male hormone and the estrogen is the female hormone played a major role in bring about dimorphism during the fetus development. (LeVay/Hamer 23)

They also found the dimorphic structure in the human brain. A cell group named INAH3, shorten for the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, in the medial preoptic region of the hypothalamus is about three times larger in men that in women. (LeVay/Hamer 23) Animal studies make available a good deal of evidence for biological basis of disease, but in this case, sexual orientation.
Through a careful exploitation of hormone level on rats, Gorski as been able to produce male rodents that demonstrate feminine behavior and injected into the female fetus that develop with the male fetus and it appear to be masculine because of the male testosterone. They also look and act more like males. In addition, they are less attractive to male mice (Gorman 60)
Related to Gorski and Allen’s study, Simon LeVay, a British biologist and neurologist at San Diego Salk Institute, who is also gay, performed another study for Biological Studies, in 1990. LeVay decided to check whether INAH3 or some other cell group in the medial preoptic area varies in size with sexual orientation as well as with sex. LeVay conducted an experiment on the hypothalamus in autopsy specimens from nineteen homosexual men, all of whom died of AIDS and sixteen heterosexual men, six of whom had also died of complication of AIDS. After encoding the specimens to eliminate all the bias that could skew the outcome. LeVay carefully sliced the hypothalamus into serial slices. He measured their cross-sectional areas and their thickness under a microscope.
LeVay has concluded the sexually dimorphic nucleus INAH3 were significantly larger than of female and smaller in male homosexuals than in straight men and similar in size to the nucleus of female. In some gay men, this group altogether nonexistent; this is statistically proven in 1 in 1000 gay men. LeVay hypothesized that this is a biological factor and possibly genetically based has influenced in the brains of homosexuals to become feminized.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 (ESV)
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

the thing I dont understand is why homosexuals proudly parade down the streets at Gay Mardi Gras. Why not a Swindlers Mardi Gras, or Adulterers Mardi Gras? One has to be a bit consistant, non?