I see that the Australian has given us this story (as linked from the Breaking News page on the SA website, which also has a number of other related items.

It comes hot on the heels of various news items about Richard Lane’s criticism of Justice Michael Kirby continuing to practise and promote homosexual behaviour while considering that he is a faithful Anglican, as discussed here.

Has the time come for Sydney Anglicans to be more straightforward in promoting the idea that it is possible to be saved, by God’s grace, from being trapped in a homosexual lifestyle?

I’m thinking here not so much of those who are convinced that their homosexual behaviour is right, but of those who believe that they are involved in sin in this regard, and would like to be free from it?

What could be done to help people in this situation?

Interesting question. I thought PJ was excellent on the ABC with Richard Glover, btw.

I think there will be some people who struggle with homosexuality their whole lives, despite all the prayer and counselling and support we might give them. So we need to acknowledge that. Just like there will be people who struggle with other sins all their lives.

On the other hand, I’ve known (personally) several men who’ve broken out of homosexuality (through the grace of God), and have eventually married and had kids. So I don’t think we should buy the lie of the world, that “that’s how I am, and nothing can change that”

Whenever I think about people escaping from a homosexual lifestyle, I get reminded of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

These verses are frightening and comforting at the same time. Frightening, because of the range of behaviours that are judged (including homosexuality). Comforting, because of the hope they hold out that such behaviour, and its consequences, need not be permanent.

Yes, I agree. There is always going to be something we will not like about Christianity. It is like vegetables, we might not necessarily like it, but it is necessary. However, usually in time we do appreciate what vegetables do for us (with its many vitamins, coenzymes, cofactors, vegetable proteins and fibre etc.).

I think people think love means acceptance. I still get trapped in that false notion, so I am quite sympathetic. If by acceptance they mean allowing you to enter a relationship the way you are, then I believe the association is approaching a correct one. But if they do mean, however, to remain in the relationship without looking out for the best interests of the other, than I think that is foolish.

I think homosexuality is just one of many sins we have underestimated the impact that it has on our inner man, and on our relationship with God. As a society we have accepted that drunkeness, adultery, fornication, perjury, selfishness, lack of respect of elders etc. as the norm of human nature. But it is pretty clear these are a result of a disfigured human nature; one where the spirit no longer controls the mind, but the desires of the flesh is more pronounced (Rom. 7, 8).

I think when we approach things like homosexuality, we must see it as a counterfeit for their desire for intimacy and love. The same goes for any other sexual perversion. I think, thus, when we talk to our sincere “homosexual” (by that I mean those with the desires, not merely practising, which is in contradiction to what it is in the Bible, where it merely means the act), we should exhort them to share with us our journey to Christ; to intimate with Him, giving Him all our hearts and mind and body, and seeking the love of Christ. However, I understand that their eros love (erotic love) has been morbidly inflamed (this is also in married couples)- I think in the same way, they need to know this desire is only intended to procreate; and perhaps a natural declaration of the deeper agape love between the Married couple. As an obese person thinks a lot about food, or like me, who is quite material (I just have to get the latest technology)- indulgence only fosters obsessions, it does not quench it.

By the way, I really enjoy reading your posts.

Deadest of deceased equines!

Not round these parts, OA ;-)

Do you have a view of people who are homosexual and don’t want to be?

Do you have a view of people who are homosexual and don’t want to be?

Yup. Most of the ones I have known were terribly knocked around by the church, most left, several believed that they were “cured”, two got married. Both marriages are deader than the aforementioned equines.

I have met others whose homosexuality wasn’t particularly real and I am sure they were eventually “cured” but it didn’t take a genius to see it was a matter of choice for them.

So, in reality my view is one on homosexualtiy. That is; humans, like many other mammal species experience sexuality on a continuum and some are full on hetero some are homosexual and many wander in between.
I think this is primarily genetically determined. If a person, through cultural pressure or conviction of sin wants to change, then they stand a chance if they are in the middle ground. But if they are at or near the extreme end then there is no chance of changing their sexuality. You might convince em to abstain, but not to change.

It seems to me that many posters have their heads “in the sand “ over ths issue of homosexuality. I don’t think the real issue is whether homosexuality is right or wrong or not sinful. Very few homosexuals would argue that homosexuality is “right”. Murder and/or killing is definitely wrong, but Christianity goes along with wars. Well most Christians.
The real issue which seems impossible to address is IMO the high divorce rate and the so-called equality of women, which encourages women to forsake married life for a career and independence. Only last week there was a show on TV giving career women the opportunity to select sperm donors over the internet. Soon , no doubt, the shopping malls will add sperm donor shops to the Katies, Portmans, Susans, Sportsgirl etc.
And why are men usually targeted as homosexuals, when I believe most homosexuals are women?
China also has a problem with a large percentage of men without a chance of finding a female partner. The problem occurs because female babies are aborted ( to reduce the population, and not as some media suggest that there is an anti female element)
How do the Chinese men cope with this?

That is; humans, like many other mammal species experience sexuality on a continuum and some are full on hetero some are homosexual and many wander in between.

Well said Oa.  In my agricultural life I have noticed many of God’s mamals such as sheep, pigs and cattle engage in homosexuality. Sometimes playful, sometimes serious, sometimes out of frustration, but the end result is the health and future of the flock or herd is not affected one iota.

Doug Leverett - 18 April 2008 09:08 AM

It seems to me that many posters have their heads “in the sand “ over ths issue of homosexuality. I don’t think the real issue is whether homosexuality is right or wrong or not sinful. Very few homosexuals would argue that homosexuality is “right”. Murder and/or killing is definitely wrong, but Christianity goes along with wars. Well most Christians.
The real issue which seems impossible to address is IMO the high divorce rate and the so-called equality of women, which encourages women to forsake married life for a career and independence. Only last week there was a show on TV giving career women the opportunity to select sperm donors over the internet. Soon , no doubt, the shopping malls will add sperm donor shops to the Katies, Portmans, Susans, Sportsgirl etc.
And why are men usually targeted as homosexuals, when I believe most homosexuals are women?
China also has a problem with a large percentage of men without a chance of finding a female partner. The problem occurs because female babies are aborted ( to reduce the population, and not as some media suggest that there is an anti female element)
How do the Chinese men cope with this?

Doug, we are aware of all the sins in the calendar. Some are more obvious than others, and that is why at times they garner more attention. But our pastors (and overseers) would discipline an adulterer as they would an active homosexual. Both behaviours are regarded as sin by God, and both force exclusion from the congregation if they continue.

The issue also has a high profile because the Homosexual/Lesbian lobby are pushing it.

Since when has what happens in the animal world a basis for judging human behaviour??

Since when has what happens in the animal world a basis for judging human behaviour??

Exactly. It seems some would have it that
(1) Animals display homosexual behaviour- hence it is normal
(2) Animals revert to homosexual behaviour to satisfy sexual instinct when hetrosexual behaviour is not possible
(3) Animal instinct should always be indulged
I think that each have some truth and some false notions to it.
(1) Animals, like humans, have diseases and mental illnesses like we do
(2) Sexual instinct in the Christian religion, and even in the human experience brings an unfathomable bond that is spiritual, and hence we can not simply think that animal behaviour would be replete with parallels of human behaviour
(3) We see this many other equally wrong impulses, such as appetite, and we are reaping its perils.Animals do not have a spirit, and thus, be carnally minded being death is of no consequence (as St. Paul says in Rom 8).

But as many have said, we are trying to formulate how we would advise repentant sinners? I think another poster said that a pastor would have to advise an adulterer and a homoseuxal, and I think if the homosexual is right, that it is no different to the heterosexual instinct, then the advise would be similar.

In addition, even if various sexual behaviour in animals seems natural to us, that doesn’t mean that God intended it that way! The effects of mankind’s sin have spread to the whole of creation, and this could be one part of that.

Owen Atkins - 18 April 2008 09:08 AM

If a person, through cultural pressure or conviction of sin wants to change, then they stand a chance if they are in the middle ground. But if they are at or near the extreme end then there is no chance of changing their sexuality. You might convince em to abstain, but not to change.

I have no idea whether you’re right about your observation here, OA, but it’s striking that you don’t make any reference to Scripture in thinking the matter through. It seems to me that any question about how we deal with homosexuality is really a subset of how we deal with sin. If someone wants to stop being a sinner, then I suppose you might be able to say, to adapt your words, “if they are at or near the extreme end [of inclination to sin] then their is no chance of changing their sinfulness. You might convince them to abstain, but not to change.”

Now while that may be true (and in acknowledging it as a possibility I leave any theological or biblical thinking out of the equation just at the moment), abstaining from sin is itself a change, and quite a significant one I would have thought, not to be dismissed as window-dressing or covering over reality.

And it seems to me that someone who is homosexually inclined is no more compelled to have sex than someone who is heterosexually inclined is compelled to have sex. So I don’t think we’re talking in the area of triviality here. The homosexually inclined person who stops having sex has made a real and signficant change, and in the Bible’s terms is to be encouraged to continue as they’ve begun (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is again useful here).

If you are going to put in place programs to help those who are struggling with unwanted homosexual feeling, then surely for consistency’s sake you also need to put in place programs to help those who are struggling with unwanted other sins (eg greed).

I don’t see much evidence around me that the church is too concerned about the latter....

On a related but far lighter note, I once heard an anglican minister in Sydney (who shall remain nameless) who was preaching on 1 Corinthians 6:9 put an extra “t” after the letter “r” in the phrase “sexual immorality”. 

He did this not once, but twice, so I don’t think that it was entirely accidental!!!

Actually David, if you look at 1 Cor 6:9-11 greed is indeed one of the sins mentioned, along with a number of others that we should be treating with equal seriousness.

I don’t really agree, however, that other problems (whether greed, drunkenness, swindling...) are not tackled in church. We may well be struggling with the sin of greed—I don’t doubt that we are—but greed and the connected virtue of generosity are frequently preached on in our church. We had a discussion about just this subject on these forums a couple of years ago, and it turned out that the way Christians use their money and material possessions is in fact quite a regular subject of preaching at both churches and Christian conventions.

But I would also add that not all sins are the same in character (although they have the same root, which is ingratitude towards God and failure to acknowledge his Lordship). The specifics of how you deal with particular sins may well vary from case to case without there being a consistency issue. If someone is dying from AIDS, you may well treat their liver functioning in quite a different way from the way you would treat Karposi’s Sarcoma, or a related pneumonia infection.

In the same way, some of our sins may require different treatment from others. Abstaining from alcohol and attending meetings may be a wise option in dealing with drunkenness; you may not treat the sin of gluttony by the same method.

Gordo
I deliberately don’t quote a lot of scripture. After years of being battered by people who quoted scripture at me I now refrain so I don’t do it to other people.
Also, there is little of use in scripture about homosexuality. It’s just “Kill them” or “They are abominations”. I’m afraid I will not do one and I am not at all amenable to the other. Most of the gays and Lesbians I have known were decent and wonderful people, not at all terribly different to the rest of us. Some were not, not terribly different to the rest of us.
So only one aspect of their behaviour, their sexual acts, was what made them, biblically, killable or abominations (In a way that is different to the rest of us- after all we all sin, but the Bible does make a special emphasis on gays doesn’t it?).
For myself, as I think I have at least hinted before, I find the biblically based inclination to target them as a group unpalatable and leads inevitably to Fred Phelps and gay bashing in general.
I have also seen enough misuse of therapy to know that providing “therapy” for gays to “cure” them is potentially a dangerous thing and have seen the results. I note that many Christian groups who provide such therapy use no useful research on their activities and in particular, sing and dance about the moment of conversion from being gay etc but not much is said about ten years later, quality of life for that individual and whether or not they are leading a secretly gay or openly gay lifestyle.
I am also uneasy about the pervading generalisation that gays are sick or sinner in a special way, as this leaves many more gays than you folks may realise quite unwilling to come before God because they know that the church is full of people who are especially unprepared to accept them and love them.

I am grateful Gordo that you acknowledge the magnitude of the commitment of abstention. You would not believe how many times I have heard someone pronounce, as if the cost were negligible, that gays should simply stop having sex. That kind of guff convinces me that such people should have nothing to do with gays as they will only offend them unnecessarily and will be placing millstones around other people’s necks. (there ya go, a little hint at biblical quoting)