Janice, great to hear of your well over 30 year old son wanting to respond to Christ. We keep praying for ours.

Hi Lydia and Danni

Craig, Fred agreed with the basic premise of Eldredge’;s book, but would never EVER recommend it to ANYONE due to its
- dreadful use of scripture
- over reliance on pop culture examples
- embrace of Open Theism ie God as Risk Taker
I didn’;t read all of it, but did hear quite a bit of it as Fred read bits of it out in horrified tones!~ I know Vaughan (son) tried to read it but ended up throwing it across room in disgust.
Have you found any problems at all in Eldredge’s use of Scripture?

I guess my philosophy is to do what Paul said to us in mimicking what ever he did…
I think if he and the other Apostles were modern day student’s at Moore or any other theological college they would have been chided on their terrible use of Scripture in making their points.

Wow, that’s great about your son Janice!

Thanks for sharing your story too, I think it’s worth quoting (my bold)…

Janice Money - 05 April 2008 10:07 PM

For several years, due to certain statements of a certain primate regarding the resurrection of Christ, my husband and I attended the local Chinese Christian church (tri-lingual services - English, Mandarin and Cantonese).  Their services start at 10.30am, finish around noon and are followed three Sundays a month by a light lunch..

[..]

The fellowship we had there was richer by far than any I’ve ever had at any Anglican church and I believe that is wholly to do with the fact that we sat down and ate lunch together every week.  We got to know each other.  The relationships were not “shell-to-shell” but person to person.  Also there was the great benefit of being able to sleep in on Sunday.

I think that’s excellent. These discussions can be so strange sometimes, essentially boiling down to “What can we do to get group x into the church, without actually changing anything or giving up any additional time?”

Well, nothing. Keep doing what you’re doing and you’ll keep getting what you’re getting.

I think the talk about men falls into this at times. Men are pragmatic, if there’s no pay off for being at church, then why be there? The question is not “How can we better spend the 5 mins of idle after-church chit chat?” but why is there 5 (or 10, or 20) minutes of after-church small talk anyway? How could we possibly think that this is some means to fulfilling relationships? All the talk about “connecting” and “relationships” is utterly meaningless if that’s all it boils down to.

The odd outside-church event with a small proportion of church attendees is good and all, but it doesn’t really get to the main issue of what happens on a Sunday.

--

Speaking of which, as a side issue, I’ve had plenty of experience being a sole, male ‘new person’ at local Anglican churches here in the Shire, and all I can say is heaven help you if you’re a non-Christian who walks in off the street. It’s hard enough as a mature, sociable Christian to get anywhere at all, I have no idea whatsoever how a non-Christian would cope.

The church I went to tonight is generally pretty good, but nights like tonight when there’s bible college students there on mission, and I can walk in, sit up the front obviously on my own, enjoy the service, then sit around… wait.. and leave without anyone saying ‘boo’ really makes me wonder.

Tonight it went like this: the service ends… I look around, everyone’s in little huddles, I fiddle with my watch a bit.. wait.. wait.. try and spot anyone I’ve met before.. get up and start slowly meandering towards the door.. scanning for anyone I know.. still meandering, pause & step aside for old lady coming the other way… keep wandering, reach the door, one last scan, no one to talk to, no one talking to me, may as well head on home…

I’ve had that experience enough to know it’s not unusual, but if I was an interested non-Christian who had spent the week summoning the courage to attend, and that was the result, it would be massively deflating, I would think God was some big joke after all, and would probably laugh it off & never show up again.

Hi Craig
You said that the Apostles

would have been chided on their terrible use of Scripture in making their points

Have you read Greg Beale’s The Right Doctrine from the Wrong Texts? In this book, some of the authors agree with you, but others say we have misunderstood how the NT writers read the Old Testament and how they interpreted it. Beale has also co-edited a Commentary on the NT use of the OT with Don Carson and that book is also well worth studying.

I don’t know any of the Moore College lecturers, but I’m guessing they would diagree that the NT writers misapplied the OT. I’m guessing they would be more inclined to agree with those who say that the NT writers read the OT in a more sophisticated way than we do today.

And I’m confident that they wouldn’t lump the NT writers together with Mr Wild-at-heart.

Justin Taylor has made some helpful comments on Greg Beale’s own article on the NT use of the Old in Right Doctrine in his blog.

I liked the “vibe” of Wild at Heart. But I agree that the use of scripture was terrible…

Hi Craig

Sorry - but can you honestly believe that Paul would agree that God “took a risk” when he sent Jesus to the cross?
In other words - that God is not sovereign?

Can’t see it myself!

Sorry - but can you honestly believe that Paul would agree that God “took a risk” when he sent Jesus to the cross?

Not at all - that was an appalling statement.

Reviewers of Wild At Heart like Daryl Wingerd, Rut Etheridge, Randy Stinson and Douglas LeBlanc agree with Mr Etheridge about the feminisation of the church and the emasculation of men, but are deeply disturbed by his biblical exegesis and understanding of the Christian message.

Suddenly realised that it looked like I was replying to Craig S when I was replying to Craig B!

Sorry - too many Craigs!

Craig Schwarze - 02 April 2008 11:58 PM

An older friend of mine was telling me that, while her husband likes church well enough, he finds the whole “coffee, cake and conversation” thing afterwards quite uncomfortable. Some of you (ladies especially) might find it hard to believe that guys could find our church morning teas and suppers quite threatening, but it’s true…

What’s the solution. Ok, think of a BBQ… A 42” inch LCD flat screen and Fox Sports, set up in the corner of the church. I’d say a fridge full of beer too, but we don’t want to be too worldly.

At my church (not Anglican) the coffee is in another room away from the worship area, and we end up with three groups of people - the tea/coffee drinkers (predominantly female), the earnest yakkers who stay in the sanctuary and talk there, and the blokes who yak in the car park. And when the weather is not conducive to yakking in the car park they go home!

We too thought of the BBQ and big screen TV idea, but when I suggested we’d have to lift the prohibition (yes, sorry to say my church still has some 1930s tendancies) there was a hue and cry and I was shouted down by ancient methodist-types. I doubt it would have worked anyway, as everyone these days seems to have their own huge TV at home plus BBQ and the premium beer of their choice always on ice… so why go to a church to watch the footy?

No I think it requires removing more cultural barriers than just the coffee thing..?

Graham Himmelhoch-Mutton - 07 April 2008 11:02 AM

[

At my church (not Anglican) the coffee is in another room away from the worship area, and we end up with three groups of people - the tea/coffee drinkers (predominantly female), the earnest yakkers who stay in the sanctuary and talk there, and the blokes who yak in the car park. And when the weather is not conducive to yakking in the car park they go home!

Hi Graham,

This in not an uncommon situation. We solved this problem about 6 weeks ago. We have the morning tea in the area at the back of the congregational seating - so everybody has to go near it after the service. ( Also solved the problem of having to lug heavy tables outside and over beneath the trees on hot days - and having to put them in the back hall on rainy days - disturbing the Sunday School set up there. )

And what was the reaction to having the refreshments available at the back of the church ? The numbers of folk staying on and having ‘food and fellowship’ has increased dramatically. If anything gets spilled on the ( scotch-guarded )
carpet, we just vacuum and clean it up afterwards - no worries ! ( Everybody has liked the new arrangement - and only one lady who was over-concerned about ‘the carpet’ had any reservations - but has come around. ) We now realise that we should have done it years ago !

The only distraction was a few weeks ago, when the tantalising smell of hot cross buns warming in the oven wafted all over the congregation - who were trying to concentrate on the sermon. Mind you, the smell was a great ‘visual aid’ to stay on after the service - or is that an ‘olfactorial aid’ ? Anyway, the tables were swamped with hungry and thirsty parishioners in record numbers soon after !

Cheers, Kevin