So, my solution for morning church is to dove tail church into the relaxing period of the weekend (esp given it’s Sunday), so I would drop a lot of the formal (or even formalised informal stuff) - no notices (yawn), no singing (ugh), no liturgy or congregational prayers, just meet up either in a non-church building or preferably outdoors under some big awnings or something if it’s sunny, read the bible, have a decent sermon, maybe pray in small groups & maybe some people can talk about some missiony stuff that’s going on, and *then* dovetail that seamlessly into a big bbq/picnic lunch thing - that’s the relaxing part of the day everyone (men especially) have been waiting for.

You’d need a big grassy area or hall or something where the kids can go & play, everyone else can just kick back with a sausage sandwhich or whatever - the kids are taken care of, lunch is taken care of, and you can enjoy some sun, have enough time to have some decent social interaction in a relaxed setting (instead of “Hi, how you going” while making your way out the door to the car) and generally kick back for the afternoon.

That way you can relax and be yourself, have an enjoyable midday lunch & afternoon, have a beer if you want, still hear the bible & pray & not feel like you have to feign interest in normal boring church, you can still sleep in, and you don’t have to feel like your faking your way through the whole experience. It would actually be fun and enjoyable, something to look forward to!

That’s something I’d want to be a part of :P

G’day Luke.

I have to say that I have been working through the Eldredge book “Wild at heart” at the moment and found it very helpful”.

I think journaling is a fantastic thing for all men to do. Lucky for us we have access to the journals of both well known people and not so well known people through out history that available for us to read. Wesley, Whitfield, Lincoln, Captain Cook to name a few.

just meet up either in a non-church building or preferably outdoors under some big awnings or something if it’s sunny, read the bible, have a decent sermon, maybe pray in small groups & maybe some people can talk about some missiony stuff that’s going on, and *then* dovetail that seamlessly into a big bbq/picnic lunch thing - that’s the relaxing part of the day everyone (men especially) have been waiting for.

This is exactly what Maroubra Surfers church does at Maroubra beach… except they also run a surfs skills program for the local kids (community outreach).

See my story on Total Church in this issue of SC (print edition).

I would quite happily abolish notices (or “church news” as we call it). I’ve not met too many guys who are all that keen on it.

Hmm, interesting - my husband has been talking about this topic a bit in recent months. 

Have any of you guys heard of/read a book called ‘Why Men Hate Going to Church’ by David Murrow?  The aforementioned husband and a few guys from church have read it recently and found it helpful in thinking about issues of men and contemporary church/worship.

Nic :)

It’s your weekend, you want to relax, you’ve probably just sat through an hour and half of wishy washy blah on a Sunday morning, and now you’re expected to stand around and feign interest in people you spend 5 mins talking to every other week? Who cares?

My, my, Luke, aren’t you the cynical one!  Let’s beware of reductionism.  No doubt some men do find church boring, others find it uncomfortable and threatening, and some of us actually enjoy it and find it richly rewarding! (Maybe that’s just because we’ve got in touch with our feminine side!?)
I think the creative suggestions of some are worthy of consideration, and especially the advice of those who say, know your turf and come up with avenues of ministry to men which work in that place.  And let’s not forget that the 5mins of allegedly superficial chit chat are often what create the permission for guys to follow up on each other more deeply at other times.  Maybe we just have to be more willing to take the initiative.
Bob
PS Any of you guys (sorry Heather) want to join us at our men’s BBQ breakfast tomorrow at East Willoughby you’re very welcome!

Bob Cameron - 04 April 2008 10:27 AM

My, my, Luke, aren’t you the cynical one!

Guilty as charged ;)

No doubt some men do find church boring, others find it uncomfortable and threatening, and some of us actually enjoy it and find it richly rewarding!

Sure, but for the sake of clarification, I was more referring to the standing-around-after-church bit.

That’s where I think there’s a huge disconnect - we talk about relationships, connecting, getting to know people etc etc, but what’s the best we can do, standing around for 20 minutes (max?) with a coffee as people head out the door? That’s pretty pathetic imo, no wonder people want to leave!

If you contrast that with building the weekly event around significant time together (a meal, ie lunch or dinner - not just the ‘morning tea’ afterthought) that reflects what people actually want to do on their weekends - relax - then surely that opens the door far more for meaningful relationships?

Apologies if I misunderstood, Luke, but I thought the “hour and a half of wishy washy blah” was referring to what happened before morning tea.  In any case, I have no problem with suggesting that more substantial opportunities for meaningful fellowship are useful - hence our men’s breakfast tomorrow, as well as my efforts to meet with men one-to-one to encourage one another during the week.  But they’re not mutually exclusive, nor do I accept the premise (that some, at least, might infer) that our regular Sunday morning practices are without value for men.

Apart from all that, I suspect that an attempt to have a “more significant time”, if it’s going to include a liesurely meal as well as the public reading of scripture, teaching and preaching (1 Tim 4:13) plus maybe a few other elements . . . well, it won’t just be more significant, it’ll be a lot longer!  We might find that trying to do that every weekend, as opposed to more occasionally, might meet with some resistance, and not just from the men.  Anyhoo, we certainly won’t be the poorer for rearranging the furniture, or even buying new furniture if need be - but let’s not throw out the old stuff just yet.

Bob

Hi Nic

We bought Why Men hate going to church”: at KEC and used the list of male and female characteristcs to kickstart a group discussion at our evening service last Sunday.  We got a lot more than we bargained for, with many men “:confessing”: their loathing of soft centred worship songs and the obligatory chat fest.

Out of the discussion, Fred and a group of men have decided to
- go paintballing
- have a day of woodcutting in aid of needy families and some widows in our congregation ( rural area - lots of wood fires)

Hopefully this will lead to more “:man friendly”: activities and focus.

Craig, Fred agreed with the basic premise of Eldredge’;s book, but would never EVER recommend it to ANYONE due to its
- dreadful use of scripture
- over reliance on pop culture examples
- embrace of Open Theism ie God as Risk Taker
I didn’;t read all of it, but did hear quite a bit of it as Fred read bits of it out in horrified tones!~ I know Vaughan (son) tried to read it but ended up throwing it across room in disgust.
Have you found any problems at all in Eldredge’s use of Scripture?

At a basic Wild at Heart seems quite good, but it’s use of the Bible is very dodgy. I think I would have preferred no scripture use to what it had. As to whether it’s actually helpful (as opposed to just a happy feel good thing) ... who knows?! The entire thing is a generalisation with no suggestions on how to really apply the model (other than I suppose, climbing mountains and rescuing golden haired beauties).

Perhaps this discussion about men at church is part of a wider issue about what it means to be a man and how should men be men. Perhaps we Christians need to explore biblical masculinity so that we can model how to be Godly men to the world around us. (Not saying that some don’t do this already.) Just thought I’d throw the thought out.

For several years, due to certain statements of a certain primate regarding the resurrection of Christ, my husband and I attended the local Chinese Christian church (tri-lingual services - English, Mandarin and Cantonese).  Their services start at 10.30am, finish around noon and are followed three Sundays a month by a light lunch (supplied on a roster basis by church families willing to bear the expense) and, on the fourth, by what they call a Love Feast in which everyone brings rather more than a plate.  The church supplies the rice.

At lunch we had opportunities to discuss the sermon or what was going on in our lives - at least with the other English speakers, of which there were more than a few.  And even with the ones who didn’t speak English, especially the elderly ones, there were opportunities to serve, if only by helping them to a seat and/or bringing them a plate of food.  We spent five years there and went back to the Anglican church for reasons I won’t go into here except to say that the retirement of said primate allowed us to do it with a good conscience.

The fellowship we had there was richer by far than any I’ve ever had at any Anglican church and I believe that is wholly to do with the fact that we sat down and ate lunch together every week.  We got to know each other.  The relationships were not “shell-to-shell” but person to person.  Also there was the great benefit of being able to sleep in on Sunday.

So now we’re back to 9am services and no more sleeping in.  I like following the liturgy because that way you don’t leave out important things like praying for those who govern us.  I like singing songs that praise our wonderful Lord.  I like having communion almost every week because it’s good to be reminded, frequently, of what Jesus has done for us.  And I like hearing the notices.  If I hadn’t heard the notices I might not have known that our minister is about to run a confirmation class and I wouldn’t have been able to tell my well-over-30-year-old son that such classes are available right now when he told me, today, that he’s decided to submit to Christ and asked me what he should do. (***!!!@!!***** :-D)

Hi Jean. Yes meeting with the church body - the people - is GOOD. Notices are necessary. Fellowship is important for real relationships to take place. We shouldn’t throw away those things about church which in essence are helpful to the church body.

(No longer responding solely to Jean.)

No single church is perfect. No single church will ever get everything right. So we do the best we can with the people we have, and with me.

Back to the topic of Men and Church, I think it is important to re-stablish in our churhces the importance of men meeting with other men without women present. This is GOOD. Yes men talk about different things when women are not there. Men communicate with one another differently than women do with women. Men need men to support one another.

And to that end can I encourage men who have bright ideas to not be backward about introducing them to their church and making them happen.

On the downside I guess every church will have to be prepared for when the women complain that they are not included.

Our church experienced that when our men folk had pub nights or for men’s breakfasts. Sometimes the women wanted to be part of it too (and that was for the pub night)! But an explanation was given to the whole church - politely and with respect - at “announcement time” (Luke - sorry) - that this was a special time just for the men to be themselves with each other. And the women in our church had to respect that.

Now to think of it our church hasn’t had either of those two activities for quite a few months now. Must be time to make another announcement guys. ;-)

Heather

Hi All

Just fyi we had a dozen men meeting together over breakfast for 90minutes this morning (sorry, nothing new/radical here).  A number of them, without anyone asking them, said how much they enjoyed it - unsolicited praise from men?  What next?

And the topic?  You guessed it Derek - “Whatever happened to ‘Manhood’?  One thing I would do differently next time, I think, and that is have the talk a little earlier, and have some discussion starter questions to help initiate thoughtful conversation about the topic.

Any others out there got any tips as to how they get men engaging in significant discussion about Christian faith and life?

Bob

Precious little experience involved with ministry compared to some of the wise minds here, but I think focussing on the nature of man being the leader of society and the family is a big deal, when I know I’ve been raised in a feminist culture with very strong willed female family members, that should erode that biblical imperative. Helping men to think through “what does it take to be a Christian leader”, the applications, the results, the follow through.

There is only two things that make men different to women - biologically we are different, and theologically, we are different. Biology should occasionally be touched on, but the infinite relevence of male servant leadership is something that every Christian male will want to ponder and seek to grow at least at some stage.

The activities around that kind of basis make very well prove enlightening for that basic direction. Paintball is fun… does it improve your servant leadership? (social days are different to teaching days, so I come with many grains of salt!)