I have’nt meant to ignore your posts. I do know the last few threads there have been on this topic the Anglican media moderator has shut the discussion down and locked the system up.
When did you last see a Masonic Temple ? Do you mean Masonic Halls or Centres ? Rest assured Craig Freemasonry is not a Religion and I know this is what you are continually trying to convey through semantical argument. Why is it that you do not believe or will not ever believe anyone that will ever tell you this.
I think you have been reading too many Anti Masonic conspiracy theory websites.
Some Masons have parts of their funeral carried out by Masons but it is usually in conjunction with a funeral of their Religious faith, and it is not a Sacrament.
I think I will have my sons play “click go the shears” at my Funeral but it is not a Hymn and it doesn’t mean I am not a Christian.

G’day Russell,

Forgive me for intruding here and for what may come across as a rude suggestion, but why is it that you keep repeating “Freemasonry is not a religion”? By continually repeating that phrase and avoiding the questions that challenge you to show that Freemasonry is not a religion, you are possibly only increasing the suspicion that Freemasonry is a religion - and one that is not wholly compatible with Christianity, at that.

For my part, I would like to put two questions to you:
1. How can it be that Freemasonry is not a religion if it requires that you believe in a Supreme Being before you can become a Mason?
2. Why do Christian Masons see it more important to follow Masonic prescriptions on not being able to discuss religion at Masonic meetings rather than the Bible’s injunctions to speak to unbelievers of the gospel whenever the chance permits (see 1 Peter 3:15, Colossians 4:5-6)? Why should Freemasonry be able to declare certain places and times “off limits” for introducing unbelievers to the gospel?

Cheers,

Timbo

Hi Timbo. I keep saying Freemasonry is not a Religion because it isn’t and inference is being made here on this site by various contributors that it is, including your post.
What questions do you feel I have avoided ? Perhaps it is an issue of discussion on the topic being blocked and threads shut down by the Anglican Media Moderator which has prevented me from answering some questions. Or it could be some of the Bible passage, Chapter and Verse comebacks, that could contradict almost anything any of us either do or say in our lives ever, perhaps.
Masonic Ritual has been used on this site in a similar way- take a snippet out of context and you can use it to sway the argument you happen to be putting forth at the time. They do it in the Middle East all the time, using the the old tried and true “EYE for an Eye” one.
Freemasonry is made up of members from all different Cultures and Religions and many Virtuous topics are discussed, just not Religion or Politics. Can I discuss Politics at an Anglican Mass? This would be inappropriate would it not? Religious topics can be discussed at other times when we get together or after the meeting or at Church, provided we are not in the Anglican one at Lithgow and are barred from entering (sorry had to get that one in, and its true can you believe it!). Do I take it that you feel this is contrary to scripture and makes Freemasonry totally incompatible with Christianity?
Gee, how many organisations could we point this one at, including most workplaces, courts of Law,Coucil Meetings etc etc
Point is , just because a Supreme being is mentioned or God and virtuous and honourable topics are discussed it doesn’t mean it is Religion. Do you think that Christianity should hold monoploy on topics of this nature ?
I do not know what to make of your claim that Christian Masons see it more important to follow Masonic prescriptions, only to say that this is a generalisation and in any case, if they were, they would most likely be Christian prescriptions anyway as Freemasonry promotes charity,fidelity, brotherly love, honour,tolerance,peace, temperance, prudence etc etc
The other point is, of course there are times when Religious discussion is off limits (using your words) in our lives. I could stand up at a Masonic meeting and discuss Religion of course, but it would be as inappropriate as doing it at a Rotary Club meeting or a Coucil meeting or a Court of Law or a Business meeting or Parliament. This would be inappropiate wouldn’t it? Other than Business meetings, all of these meetings mention God , make an Oath and even pray at times, by the way. How many of these would you call Religions ?
RUSS

G’day Russell,

Sorry for the delay in replying - I’ve been out of the country for a couple of weeks.

[quote author="Russell Dobson"]What questions do you feel I have avoided ?

My mistake, Russell, I was confusing you with Colin Sutherland.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]I do have to say, Perhaps it is an issue of discussion on the topic being blocked and threads shut down by the Anglican Media Moderator which has prevented me from answering some questions.

My perception of that instance was that it was due to the nature of some of the answers provided by some parties that verged on being defamatory.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Or it could be some of the Bible passage, Chapter and Verse comebacks, that could contradict almost anything any of us either do or say in our lives ever, perhaps.
Masonic Ritual has been used on this site in a similar way- take a snippet out of context and you can use it to sway the argument you happen to be putting forth at the time.

If you believe the Bible or Masonic ritual/practice has been taken out of context in these pages, please indicate where so that we can discuss it.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]They do it in the Middle East all the time, using the the old tried and true “EYE for an Eye” one.

I don’t think I understand what you are saying here - who is “they”? What situation are you talking about? Could you clarify what you meant here?
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Can I discuss Politics at an Anglican Mass? This would be inappropriate would it not?

Do you mean during the actual serving of bread and wine, or after the meeting? I would suggest the former isn’t perhaps the best time to talk about anything except what we are engaged in, i.e. remembering Christ’s death on the cross. I would suggest the latter could be a useful time to discuss politics, sport, weather, family, or anything else that helps build one another up in our faith.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Religious topics can be discussed at other times when we get together or after the meeting or at Church, provided we are not in the Anglican one at Lithgow and are barred from entering (sorry had to get that one in, and its true can you believe it!).

But what about if there are non-Christian members that you don’t see at other times apart from official meetings? When would a Christian mason get the chance to encourage them to investigate the claims of Jesus? Although I apologise for the verbosity, I think it is helpful to repost the motion passed at Synod last year concerning freemasonry:
[quote author="2003 Synod"]"Synod, noting the 1988 Report to Synod entitled “Freemasonry Examined” and subsequent resolution 9/88 of that Synod -

(a) affirms that Freemasonry and Christianity are fundamentally and irreconcilably incompatible, and

(b) affirms that Freemasonry teaches and upholds a system of false religious and spiritual beliefs that are contrary to biblical Christianity.

Synod encourages ministers and other Christians to take every opportunity to reach out in love to all Freemasons and share with them the gospel of Christ.

Synod encourages all Christians who are members of a Masonic Lodge to demonstrate their commitment to Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God and as the sole way of salvation, by withdrawing from the Lodge.

Synod encourages ministers not to participate in, nor allow in their church buildings, any religious services or activities that uphold, condone, promote or encourage adherence to Freemasonry.

Synod requests the Councils of all Anglican Schools to consider any association that their school may have with any Masonic Lodge, and to withdraw from any such association. Synod further requests that Anglican Schools neither participate in any activity that may uphold, condone, promote or encourage adherence to Freemasonry, nor give publicity to any such activity, nor allow the name of the school to be used in association with any such activity.

Synod requests Standing Committee to undertake the preparation, production and distribution of a clear and unambiguous booklet suitable for wide distribution, examining the key rites, teachings and beliefs of Freemasonry and explaining why they differ from Biblical Christianity, and explaining why it is wrong for a Christian to belong to the Lodge.”

Nowhere does this resolution indicate that freemasons are barred from entering any Anglican church in the Sydney Diocese, or from taking communion, or from attending weddings, or any of the other scenarios you have posed. I submit that any ongoing suggestions in this vein are deliberate misrepresentations of the decision of Synod.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Do I take it that you feel this is contrary to scripture and makes Freemasonry totally incompatible with Christianity?

I think it is an unhelpful precedent to voluntarily join a society that attempts to curb the ability of its Christian members to discuss their belief and the facts of the gospel during an official meal where other topics can be freely discussed. I don’t know enough about Freemasonry to say whether it is totally incompatible with Christianity, but can I ask you if you have read the report made to the Standing Committee in 1988? If you have, what points in particular do you disagree with?
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Gee, how many organisations could we point this one at, including most workplaces, courts of Law,Coucil Meetings etc etc

I’m not sure what you mean by “how many organisations could we point this one at”. Do you mean there are many other places that forbid discussion of religion during their meetings? I have to say my experience of the workplaces I have been in is that they do not make such a proscription. We are free to discuss any matter we want over our lunch break.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Point is , just because a Supreme being is mentioned or God and virtuous and honourable topics are discussed it doesn’t mean it is Religion.

No, but if certain propositional statements about God are made then it certainly seems to be making truth claims about God - which qualify it in my mind to having a religious element.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Do you think that Christianity should hold monoploy on topics of this nature ?

In terms of being the final authority on the nature of God and what He requires of those who would serve Him, yes.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]I do not know what to make of your claim that Christian Masons see it more important to follow Masonic prescriptions,

Read what I wrote a little more carefully and you will see I was referring to the specific prescription of not discussing religion at official meetings - a claim you have affirmed is true.
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]The other point is, of course there are times when Religious discussion is off limits (using your words) in our lives. I could stand up at a Masonic meeting and discuss Religion of course, but it would be as inappropriate as doing it at a Rotary Club meeting or a Coucil meeting or a Court of Law or a Business meeting or Parliament. This would be inappropiate wouldn’t it?

Absolutely, but when other topics are allowed to be discussed - i.e. in a part of the meeting where discussion is allowed, say over the meal you mention - why shouldn’t Christian masons be able to talk of Christianity? I am not suggesting that in the middle of a formal part of a meeting you burst out with the Apostles Creed, any more than I would suggest a Christian concert violinist get up in the middle of Beethoven’s 5th symphony to discuss the resurrection with the lead bassoon player. What I am getting at is why when other topics can be discussed, religion (including Christianity) should be forbidden, and whether this does not represent some sort of capitulation to worldly thinking at this point, rather than giving an ongoing priority to Christ and his word?
[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Other than Business meetings, all of these meetings mention God , make an Oath and even pray at times, by the way. How many of these would you call Religions ?

None - as they do not seek to make descriptional claims about God and his workings apart from the Bible, which some of the statements presented here as part of Masonic ritual appear to do ... unless you can show us either that these statements are not part of Masonic ritual or that they have been taken out of context (by which I mean give an explanation of how they should be taken, not simply saying “they have been taken out of context").

Regards,

Timbo

Timbo

Sorry, I have only just seen your reply. The topic keeps going over and over old ground. Trying to convince zealots with directive that Freemasonry is somehow Religious because God is mentioned in Ritual is harder than trying to sell ice to Eskimos, especially when Sydney Synods attitude is as it stands.
I have covered almost every question you have asked in previous posts I think.
Why not also take a look at The Grand Masters considered response to Sydney Synod on this site www.uglnsw.freemasonry.org.au
Have you heard speak of a Man from Lithgow whom passed away last year (may he rest in peace) by the name of Harold Coates OBE ?
He was an ex Grand Master and banned from attending the Anglican Church in Lithgow. Has the Doicese looked into this if it is not a Synod directive?
regards..
Russell

Russell,

With respect, Russell, I don’t think you can in any reasonable way claim to have covered the questions I have asked in previous posts. With regard to Harold Coates, yes I have learned of him through what you have posted here, but what evidence do you have that it was a Synod directive that he be banned from attending the Lithgow Anglican church? What other evidence apart from your hearsay can you show us that he was banned from attending Lithgow Anglican church?

I suppose I could keep repeating my perfectly simple questions and pushing them in your face in the hope that you might actually read them and respond to them, but on past form I think it is unlikely you will give me a straight reply. Feel free to prove me wrong. So here is just one repeated question, the one I consider most important, and which you have in no way attempted to answer:

In a part of a Freemason meeting where discussion is allowed, say over the official meal you have mentioned, do you feel that the order that prevents Christian masons to talk of Christianity is compatible with Christian doctrine and practice? If so, why?

I will look at the link you have posted.

Timbo

Russell,

Can you provide some further directions to where on the Freemasons NSW & ACT website the reply to Sydney Synod is located? It was not immediately apparent and I don’t want to have to search manually through every newsletter to try and find it.

Timbo

Top left, Timbo.

[quote author="Rowen Atkinson"]Top left, Timbo.

The black box that doesn’t open on my computer’s connection? The introduction? Something else?

[quote author="Tim Allen"][quote author="Rowen Atkinson"]Top left, Timbo.

The black box that doesn’t open on my computer’s connection? The introduction? Something else?

The black box is a flash file linking to a pdf <edit>INSIDE A FRAMESET!!!</edit>.  Jakob Nielsen would be spinning in his grave, if he were dead..

try this instead

Timbo,
Freemasons can talk with other Freemasons about Christianity,Islam etc whenever they want. However for the sake of peace and harmony at the lodge meeting ( say three hours in a month) we do not talk on religion, out of tolerance and respect for all the members present and the Religions that they follow.It is not part of Freemasonry charter to even have a point of view on Religion, it is purely up to every individual. At a lodge meeting the subjects of The Messiah, Salvation, sacraments etc are not entered into at all.
On the evidence you have requested on the Harold Coates issue, I would ask, have the Diocese been in touch with the Coates family ?
If you got the whole story it would make you sick, it certainly made Mr Coates sick, and that is all I am going to say about it. 
How did you go with the Freemasons website, maybe I could e-mail it to you ?
Regards,
Russ

G’day Russell,

I’m sorry to see that you have once more declined to answer my question - I am struggling to understand why you continually dodge the inquiries I have put before you. It certainly doesn’t help dispel the long-standing stereotype that masons are secretive and less than forthcoming about what they do and believe. Please help us to see that stereotype as unfair by providing answers that actually engage the questions that were asked.

[quote author="Russell Dobson"]On the evidence you have requested on the Harold Coates issue, I would ask, have the Diocese been in touch with the Coates family ?

How could I possibly know? I don’t know the Coates family, I don’t attend Lithgow Anglican, and I don’t know who or what you mean by “the Diocese”. Do you mean the Archbishop? Standing Committee? Some Synod representative? A lay member of the 9:30 am service at St. Mark’s West Wollongong? Any of those qualify as being “of” the diocese, but what do you precisely envisage “the Diocese” getting in touch with the Coates family as being?

[quote author="Russell Dobson"]How did you go with the Freemasons website, maybe I could e-mail it to you ?

As you can see from the previous few posts, I had a bit of trouble getting to the correct page, but Rowen provided the direct link for me and I have read Tony Lauer’s reply. Thanks for providing it for us, Russell. I’ll post my thoughts on it shortly, but in brief I think that it shows Tony Lauer does not really understand Christianity very well.

Timbo

I would have thought that my reply made it self evident as you know I am a Christian.
I certainly do not think that Jesus would have a problem with Freemasonry.
We are a Fraternity of men that meet on occasion to discuss charity,tolerance, peace and Harmony. And, Freemasons do not do this under any Religious banner. It deals with benevolence, as do Churches, thats about where the similarities stop.
No, I am sure Jesus does not have a problem with a Fraternity of this nature.
Now , If Jesus were here today in Human form how do you think he would sum up on the Anglican Church of late Timbo ?

[quote author="Russell Dobson"]I would have thought that my reply made it self evident as you know I am a Christian.

Well, yes, I could guess (and did) at what your answer would be, but past experience has shown me how wrong assumptions and guesses based on what is self-evident (i.e. evident to my self) can be. Better to get a clear unambiguous statement than to operate in the shadows of assumptions and guesses, particularly in the limited communication of a written forum such as this. Thank you for your straight answer to my question.

[quote author="Russell Dobson"]Now, If Jesus were here today in Human form how do you think he would sum up on the Anglican Church of late Timbo ?

The first thing that springs to mind to me is how devastatingly unexpected Jesus’ criticism of the “church” in his day was. The people who thought they had it so right were soundly condemned for how wrong they had got it. I suspect all of us, no matter what our theological persuasion, would get a mighty great verbal boot up the backside for our own particular failings - perhaps in the same way that the seven churches of Asia Minor received different warnings and rebukes in the letters at the beginning of Revelation.

The Anglican Church in 2004; here in Sydney, Nigeria, Canada; evangelical, liberal; traditional, contemporary; catholic, protestant; all of it (and all of other denominations/groupings in the church) would get some pretty firm corrective, I’m sure, for each of its own particular failings.

As to what those particular failings are, I don’t feel confident or qualified to speak the Lord’s mind for Him.

Timbo

tim,
We had better agree to disagree on Freemasonry.
Agree with the second point you are making there.
Russ