[quote author="Tim Foster"]The other solution I suggested is that lay people demonstrate the same commitment they expect of clergy and either deliberately move in to ‘hard areas’ with a real long term commitment to them, or at least not move out of them first chance they get.

I think we should have an attitude of commitment regardless of whether it is a “hard” or “easy” area - if it is where God wants us, we should be committed to serving him there.

I don’t think my area is particularly hard innately, but it’s not easy for me, in many ways. If I wanted an area in which my needs (generally speaking - work and living arrangements as well as spiritual, emotional and other needs) would be met, I would probably be somewhere else.

But I believe that God wants me here, at least for now, and I believe he wants us to be servants. God has given me the opportunities I now have to serve him. My commitment is to seeking to make the most of them, for him… Remaining a committed lay person is one way I am trying to do that.

Solutions

In answer to Andrew, Scots Church, Melbourne.

Personally I am beginning to wish God didn´t set me to work in the hard spots.
I started Youth Work in Kings Cross
Drug & Alcohol Work in Cabramatta

I mean
Give me a break

Rural work in Narrabri where the summer is impossible
(but I do live in God´s backyard!)

I am only half being facetious cos I wanted to highlight the link between whatever it is that you do as ministry.
Y´don´t need a gammy collar for ministry

G’day all,

Did Tim Foster really write:

The other solution I suggested is that lay people demonstrate the same commitment they expect of clergy and either deliberately move in to ‘hard areas’ with a real long term commitment to them, or at least not move out of them first chance they get.

He can’t be serious? Do you mean we should expect Christians to take up their cross and follow Jesus?!? You mean we might expect people to make hard choices about where they live for the sake of the gospel? People might have to leave the Shire?!?  (<= I could get in trouble for that one!)

Actually, I have a number of heroes who are committed lay-people who have done just this. Usually they have made a huge and long-lasting impact for Christ in an area. I might even suggest that such a committed ministry-minded group of lay-people is more important to the growth of the gospel in a particular place (in God’s providence) than the “minister”. Perhaps we should give more honour to the role of “tent-making” than we currently do.

Richard.

[quote author="Richard Blight"]People might have to leave the Shire?!?  (<= I could get in trouble for that one!)

/banned

Luke, remind me again what you said about the Shire the other week...?

:P

Sorry to bring you all back on topic guys ....!

Rick Smith wrote a long time ago:
And as for accepting people from other colleges… a possibility. But I wonder if people deliberately choose to go to another college because they don’t like Sydney? Also they have kept seperate from any assessment process, so the liklihood of unwise decisions increases doesn’t it?

If they don’t attend Moore for other reasons, like the location of the college, then what does that say about how they’ll make a decision about the ministry they will or will not accept?

Rick, there are other reasons.

1. my wife and I grew up as Sydney Anglicans and spent much of our childhood attending Macquarie Fields Anglican church. I then looked at completing a BTh as preparation for missionary work. The two colleges I investigated were SMBC and Moore. A number of the lecturers were the same. At the time the BTh exams were exactly the same. Both colleges are strictly evangelical and uphold the authority of scripture in everything they do.

The only major difference? The cost. That’s why we went to SMBC. Moore College cost twice as much unless a person was an ordination candidate.

Our life circumstances changed when our first child had a health problem so our missionary plans were shelved. The question then arose as to how we would serve God with the training we’d been given? This is a situation which the Sydney system is not equipped to deal with.

2. A friend came from a denomination with “severe liberal tendencies” and chose to study at SMBC. After completing a BTh he decided that he couldn’t work within the denomination he’d come from and found a job as a stipendary lay worker in an Anglican Parish--doing all the things that an assistant minister would do. This man would make an excellent incumbant but because his “life circumstances” did not fit the mould he will not be able to lead an Anglican parish.

Of course I believe that an ordination candidate should meet certain minimum standards of theological education (and I have no problem with it being for 4 years at the Moore College standard) but shouldn’t being a minister of the Gospel depend on the person in question and less on the theological training institution they went to, provided certain minimum standards are met?

And yes, bad decisions will be made in the same way that bad decisions are still sometimes made about people who go through Moore. But should the fear of making an occasional bad decision stop us from making many good decisions?

For your consideration.

Hi all, sorry about the long delay in getting back to the forum - life intervenes and all that! :)

I’d like to add my support to Phil’s post. I too grew up as a Sydney Anglican (in the South West). I too am a graduate of SMBC, but my reasons for attending (as a chick) were slightly different - the issue of ordained ministry wasn’t an option for me, but I did have a clear desire to serve the Lord in some capacity. I felt a clear call to attend this particular college (make of that what you will), and found the benefits of studying with students from 15 different denominations to be vast (you get a better perspective on what issues are important, for a start!). Was the study of a suitable academic standard? As an honours grad of another uni, I think so. Was it evangelical? Most definitely!

Bec Watson mentioned earlier that Moore is not hard and fast about its approach to prior degree attainment. As I attended college with quite a number of committed tradies, I think Moore - perhaps unintentionally - closes an unnecessary door on godly men in this situation. Let me explain:

At SMBC, there are a number of different courses offered for different purposes - from a one year Postgrad Dip to a four year MDiv and beyond. The college seems to promote flexibility in one’s approach to study - so you can take a year off to get a better bible understanding, or devote two, three or four years to further study. I started attending evening courses while working full time, and then slipped in to full-time on-campus study.

From an outside perspective, the flexibility of SMBC seemed to be attractive to many. There were a couple of trends that I noticed in the students there:
1. Among school leavers, tradies etc, the Diploma was a common choice. Partly this was because it allowed the capacity to “settle in” to academic study. There was support in how to write essays, for example.
2. As people became comfortable with the concept of study, how to do it and so on, there was sometimes a move across into the degree program - particularly amongst people who wanted to be involved in full-time ministry in some way.
3. Assistance was given to people who struggled - help with Greek, direction in research etc. If they continued to struggle, other programs were offered (e.g. BMin with English exegesis subjects, though the BMin is no longer offered).

So basically, there was a “warming up” capacity within the college. Among the blokes I studied with were some who had thought of MTC, but found it too inflexible in this situation. There was no way they could have jumped in to the deep end straight away!
The problem was, they came through after 4+ years (diploma -> degree studies) to find that there was an expectation of at least 2 more at MTC if they wished to work within Sydney in an ordained capacity. Once MTC removed itself from the ACT assessments, this became even more daunting as there was no longer any equivalency in subjects. For someone just finishing their HSC, 6+ years of tertiary study can be daunting. For an adult with a family to support, the prospect is too much.

There was one quite depressing experience over my time there. We had regular “mission spots” where representatives from various mission and ministry groups would come and speak about the opportunities for service after college. At one such spot, we were visited by the bishop of one Sydney diocese who spoke about his great need - 17 vacancies in his region. He then proceeded to apologise and say there was nothing we could do about this need, as we were in the wrong place of learning. To say “we need people to come and serve” followed by “there’s nothing you can do” is quite a hard message to hear, I can tell you!

If the embargo on other colleges remains, then I think MTC will have to continue to become more flexible in its approach - much more “tradie friendly” you might say. Otherwise we will continue with a situation where 17+ “hard” locations remain unfilled, while countless godly and willing evangelical men are left frustrated.

Mind you, Sydney’s loss has been Armidale, WA, Adelaide, Tasmania, and Melbourne’s gain, to name a few… :)

I too will add my support to Phil and Kris’s post.

I have been SA all my Christian life - but did not get the best marks at school. For me, the choice of college was either Moore or SMBC. When I rang both colleges - here is what went down. (and don’t get me wrong I am a big fan of MTC)

The first question I was asked my SMBC was this:

How is your relationship with God?

At Moore it was this?

Have you graduated from a recognised tertiary institution?
I said no
Then it was this?
Have you matriculated?
I then said, “What does that mean?”
I was told that if I wanted to apply I would have to sit a literacy test and do a Greek Exam! I was stunned. I may not have gotten into uni (actually at the time I could have done a B.Nursing at UWS (this is in the early 90’s) but I was not into that field at all) but I was not a dope. However I came away feeling pretty stupid. It was very intimidating, the thought of the literacy exam was cool, as I can read and write quite well; but doing a Greek Exam before even starting at Moore in order to see if I could cope with the ‘rigours of academic study’ is like giving a five year old an exam question on Keats to see if he can put up with Year 12 English. (OK I am exagerating here, but I think my point is clear).

So I went to SMBC! And praise God, I did pretty well!

For years I really struggled with what I called an ‘intelligence inferiority complex’. I really believed that I was actually stupid because:
I did not go to a Private School
I did not have white collar parents
Both my parents were not Christians and divorced
Did not get a high TER
Did not get in the Uni Course I applied for

And hearing comments like “Moore is like a Private School where SMBC is like a public School” and “You will never get a catechist position Joshua, you are not at Moore College” and “Oh yes, SMBC will suit you Joshua, it is not as academic as Moore” (which incidently is not true, if you ask anyone who has been there, who has a degree prior, theological or otherwise) just made me feel like ‘the black sheep in the Sydney Anglican family. It was really upsetting and frustrating as I wanted to serve God in full time gospel ministry since I was 16; and to get older and still have that passion for God yet have all this baggage was well and truly awful.

Please don’t misunderstand me everyone! I love the SA diocese and Moore College; and I am very much a product of the ministry at Christchurch Gladesville which was my church home from 1988 - 1998/99. But when you are a man who is outside the cultural square of Sydney Anglicans; it was very hard. Well, it was for me anyway.

As Kris said:

Sydney’s loss has been Armidale, WA, Adelaide, Tasmania, and Melbourne’s gain, to name a few… :)

When it comes to ordained ministry this seems to be the case. It is ironic that there is such a shortage of ‘ministers’ yet there are so many people who would make fine godly ministers who simply are too upset to even put their hands up as they think they are not ‘qualified’ enough or that they think themselves ‘stupid’ as I did.

Perhaps God only calls people who are teachers, engineers and academics to be ministers eh? Sometime the message given out by the modus operandi of the Sydney Diocese and MTC does seem to suggest this. But gee I hope I am wrong!!! I really do.

blessings
Joshua

p.s Thanks for reading this everyone.  I actually think MTC is great and I recommend it highly. I am sorry if I have offended anyone by what I have said.

p.p.s I don’t have that intelligence inferiority complex anymore. I am proud to be a boofhead! ;)

I must admit I was completely surprised by this article - I seem to recall only 6 months ago Philip Jensen was calling out for positions to be made open in Anglican churches across the diocese because of the looming ministry surplus, so successful has his Ministry Training Scheme been.  This is in addition to all the news regarding Moore College’s biggest classes ever.  So now I am completely confused!  Is there, or isn’t there, a minister shortage?  And if there is, does the Diocese have a strategy to meet the shortfall in the near future?

I must say, having followed this post from afar, I am impressed with the courage and love of those like Joshua who are prepared to put their stories online.  It is helpful for me to hear how others have fared in their desire to enter full time ministry. 

Howie

Solutions to the "minister shortage"?

I counted to 30 “non-MTC parishes” by the time I got to Paddington (still have Randwick, Redfern, CCSL, Sth Hurstville, Watsons Bay and Waverley to go).  A number are hard-core charismatic and a fair smattering of Anglo Catholic. 

This may be a bit off topic but can anybody tell me which parishes in Sydney are the “hard-core” (or soft core for that matter) charismatic parishes and if they have websites?

Why is Moore the only option for theological and ministerial Sydney diocese? 
I understand that Moore provides a great foundation for theological study but is this only option for the diocese of Sydney? Better yet, what about the option of part time and distance theological study that leads into ordained ministry. I believe there are people out there that can study part time and are willing to make a commitment to understand and teach the word of God to the people of Sydney.

I was tempted to attempt a hasty answer to Shaun’s question.  But on reflection, in the spirit of this topic, we should all stew on it for a couple of years.