What Nunc said.  *Applause*

Other twenty something males prove their “maleness” by loud car stereo systems (personally I think they like the loud beat because it makes them forget the small size of their genitalia… *snort*)

* double snort *: I think that too. ;-)

Personally, I think it goes too far: our culture here in Australia represses men’s sexuality, it represses their self-expression - and any outpourings of that nature are treated with great suspicion.

* Applause *

100% agreement: men’s sexuality is the big taboo - in fact men’s feelings are often a big taboo.  It might sound I am having a whinge [can you hear the violins? ;-)], but I believe it.  Be Macho!  Be Strong!

A great deal changed for me after a major depression episode: after 10+ years of bottling up everything, it all came out in one horrific swoop.  As far as I am concerned now, I have to deal with issues as they crop up, not shun them away and hope they’ll be forgotten - because they won’t be.  However, as Nunc said, Aussie culture doesn’t lend itself to that very much, and I often find church groups operate in a similar way: not all, but some.

Honesty is shunned for “holiness”; discussion and feelings are shunned for small talk [the number of times I heard people say “Pray I can be a good witness at work” in lieu of saying anything else is astronomical *].  I may be getting a bit off the topic, but I believe this lends itself to the discussion at hand.  Simple to say, difficult to implement: we need honesty and it needs to start from the church, esp. in relation to SSA and other struggles people have that they are uncomfortable with.

Ian.

* I am not criticising that as an action/ prayer point: I am simply saying people can substitute that for honesty [3 people said it every week for 2 years!  Surely they had other struggles!] and thus honest discussion is stifled.  I wish I was strong enough to broach honesty in a group, but I am weak fellow

Homophobia and the Church

Nunc dimittis said

I have found (as a woman) that gay men are very at home with women, and are equally at home with men. Those I know are well adjusted socially, and are not “girlish”. Not all gay people support or are interested in the Mardi Gras, not all are exhibitionists who flaunt their sexuality, not all exhibit the extreme “femininity” (actually, the femininity is not so much definitively homosexual) some gays express.

I agree with that, but the point is, do they approach women for sexual partnership? Homosexuals are at ease with both sexes, but go to men for sex. They are obviously attracted to men more than women. This may be for psychological or physical reasons. (Some men go to both sexes, but are really homosexual I would say.)

Nunc Dimittis said

Immaturity is not something bounded by sexuality. My observations of men my age is that MOST are immature. Most have not realised their sexuality, most are scared of it, most are not at home with who they are. They seek to build themselves up by boasting of their achievements, they are afraid of intelligent women. Other twenty something males prove their “maleness” by loud car stereo systems (personally I think they like the loud beat because it makes them forget the small size of their genitalia… *snort*), or by immersing themselves in the “mateship culture”.

I agree, I see this in many males. Maturity and relationships with the opposite sex helps to eradicate this in most cases. Men are more competitive than women. They may not show their true feelings to others for reasons of self-protection. (I remember jokes like “Real mean don’t eat quiche, Real men dont.....” Etc

Some men relate mostly with their mates, more than to women, in their lifestyle. They try to impress the mates, and are not flexible with their behaviour towards women. This behaviour is what they feel comfortable with. Could this lead to homosexual relations? I dont really know.

My “young boy” story was possibly a bit confusing . I experienced guilt about these early sexual experiences for some time in later life. But as you say, I was a normal kid really.

I must say the most difficult time for me was in later teen years, when I felt inadequate in the company of girls, and more at ease with my peers. I was very insecure at that time of life.
I wondered if I could cope with the pressures of life and growing up. I wondered if I was normal, and must confess I felt very inferior to images of “real men” I saw on films, TV etc. I was having difficulty in growing up, self image, etc.

I think the adolescent period could be the time where some males do not leave the comfort zone of the peer group easily.
Is the battle is too difficult, and male friends offer easy comfort, which leads to sexual relations? (It would depend on the nature of the peer group I suppose.)
I must say I never felt attraction towards other mates sexually, and I would have been rightly alienated from them if I did. I would be offended if a mate of mine made advances towards me.

I think that having sex with some girls shortly after that time, took those thoughts out of my head. I am not boasting about that, but I must say it did change me. I wonder how I would have grown if I didn’t have my experiences. (I am not promoting sexual freedom here, marriage is the best option of course, but is financially difficult for young people)

Could the self enforced celibacy of church life promote sexual difficulties? Is it the cause of paedophelia and homosexuality in some churches?

I do not seek to downgrade people who are gay, I am trying to understand why people became gay, and if they could be helped to find a more happy and rewarding life with a heterosexul lifestyle. It would be interesting to hear from a large cross-section of homosexual people, the reasons in their minds, for their lifestyle.

I wonder if females become lesbians due to the same reasons as men become gay. Is it different for females?

As for the subject “homophobia and the church”, I think the church is primarily against all sin, and cannot condone it in any form. Active homosexuality, expecially in leadership positions cannot be condoned really.

Thanks for replying Nunc, God bless

Ken

Re: Homophobia and the Church

Ken: thanks for your honesty and detailing your experiences.  It is great you feel comfortable enough to do so.

[quote author="Ken Austin"](I remember jokes like “Real mean don’t eat quiche, Real men dont.....” Etc

I hate quiche!
;-)

[quote author="Ken Austin"]
Some men relate mostly with their mates, more than to women, in their lifestyle. They try to impress the mates, and are not flexible with their behaviour towards women. This behaviour is what they feel comfortable with. Could this lead to homosexual relations? I dont really know.

Interesting question: I think life is a bit more complex than that.  Looking back through history, men seem to stick with men and women with women in day-to-day business / social life.  I’m not sure that led homosexual relations, but I am unsure as you are.

You and Nunc had interesting points on the “immaturity” aspect [not meaning to be derogatory; I mean it in terms of sexual development] - perhaps there is that need for the love that various people who have contributed to this thread have made clear? 

Certain homosexuals I know explain that they “knew” they never had an attraction for the opposite sex: they just “knew”.  Some were unaware (living very sheltered lives) that homosexuality was even an option: once they “discovered” it, they knew it fit.  I write this to provide an insight into what others have told me.

[quote author="Ken Austin"]
I must say the most difficult time for me was in later teen years, when I felt inadequate in the company of girls, and more at ease with my peers. I was very insecure at that time of life.
I wondered if I could cope with the pressures of life and growing up. I wondered if I was normal, and must confess I felt very inferior to images of “real men” I saw on films, TV etc. I was having difficulty in growing up, self image, etc.

I think we all go through similar things, though to varying degrees.  I went through things in your second paragraph, but my teenage life was spent more with girls than male peers [simply as my interests weren’t sport and cars and sex, and I couldn’t give a stuff about “fitting in"].

[quote author="Ken Austin"]
I think the adolescent period could be the time where some males do not leave the comfort zone of the peer group easily.
Is the battle is too difficult, and male friends offer easy comfort, which leads to sexual relations? (It would depend on the nature of the peer group I suppose.)

The teenage years are tough as the hormones race and you can find yourself attracted to anything!  It is also a time for many of experimentation, and perhaps that leads to such feelings.

As I wrote above, though, friends whom I know who are gay say they knew it from the word go.  I am not saying that people can’t change or discover or whatever, simply providing some examples from real life.  I tend to think that SSA may be something people are born with - and that puts things in a very different light in terms of dealing with it.

[quote author="Ken Austin"]
I think that having sex with some girls shortly after that time, took those thoughts out of my head. I am not boasting about that, but I must say it did change me. I wonder how I would have grown if I didn’t have my experiences. (I am not promoting sexual freedom here, marriage is the best option of course, but is financially difficult for young people)

I think sexual desire (hetero or homo) is something we all struggle with: God has lain down rules for the proper time and place for such things and we need to try our best to satisfy them.  HOWEVER: we are sinful creatures and we will make honest (and perhaps not-so-honest) mistakes - and God does indeed forgive us.  “I desire mercy, not sacrifice” should never be far from our memories.

[quote author="Ken Austin"]
Could the self enforced celibacy of church life promote sexual difficulties? Is it the cause of paedophelia and homosexuality in some churches?

Quite possibly.  I was reading “A Portrait of Jesus” by Fr Girzone who was saying many Roman Catholic priests who knew they were called to the priesthood struggled immensely with celibacy years into their vocation: Fr Girzone said some are called to the priesthood and some are called to celibacy - they should not be intertwined.

[quote author="Ken Austin"]
I do not seek to downgrade people who are gay, I am trying to understand why people became gay, and if they could be helped to find a more happy and rewarding life with a heterosexul lifestyle. It would be interesting to hear from a large cross-section of homosexual people, the reasons in their minds, for their lifestyle.

I can’t see you denigrating anyone - your replies have been thoughtful, kind and from the heart.

My questions would be “Do such people want a heterosexual lifestyle?”; and “Can they live one?” We do not want people living a lie, and forcing someone into a heterosexual relationship would not be a way to go.  I understand that some persons with SSA may want help to overcome it, others may be content to take it along with other “thorns in the flesh” and deal with it.

I would not consider myself gay - despite some episodes of SSA - as I do not lust after men sexually [more a case of physical attraction] while I (sinfully) lust after a women sexually.  The occasional feelings I have for men I tend to think come from sexual and perhaps mental immaturity, and a desire to be loved and respected by my peers.  (Despite my “couldn’t give a stuff about “fitting in"”, in some sense I did want it).  I deal with this as I deal with thoughts about lying, cheating, etc..  That is how I view it.

[quote author="Ken Austin"]
I wonder if females become lesbians due to the same reasons as men become gay. Is it different for females?

As I said above, I think many people are born that way.  Lesbian friends of mine have said, as I wrote above, that they knew they had no lust for men.

Ian.

Edit @ 01:50 - Cleared up sentence [I should get to bed! ;-)]

Quite possibly. I was reading “A Portrait of Jesus” by Fr Girzone who was saying many Roman Catholic priests who knew they were called to the priesthood struggled immensely with celibacy years into their vocation: Fr Girzone said some are called to the priesthood and some are called to celibacy - they should not be intertwined.

Mmm I’ve read some of Girzone’s books too… have you read his Joshua books? (If you haven’ts, I don’t recommend them.)

<Tangent>

Nunc: may I ask why you wouldn’t recommend them?  A deacon at my church recommended Joshua: I am curious as to your findings / thoughts.  I have not read any Josua books as yet.

Thanks.

</Tangent>

I too have read the Joshua books, they are a little theologicaly unsound as in how Christ returns.

Having said that, I found them refreshing as in thinking through “What would Jesus Do” in our communities today.

I would rate them as easy christian reading.

craig

Craig said it, Ian.

At the time, reading the Joshua books for me revived a lagging faith. But I think they are borderline “twee” Christian material.

Ian, if you’d like to borrow them, I’d be most happy to lend them to you - I collected the lot (I do things like that, I like to collect sets of things...). We could do a quick coffee sometime if you’re in town…

Apologies I have been away from my own thread so long - my modem died and I had to wait two weeks for the replacement, which backed on to the week Anglican Media’s server died. *sigh* You don’t realise an addiction exists until you have to go cold turkey.

I see there has been a fair bit of discussion about the origin and nature of homosexual attraction. So I will add my view to the melee.

I find it curious that homosexuality/heterosexuality is generally spoken of in binary terms, when it is apparent to everyone that bisexuality; homoerotic fantasies among some people who would identify as heterosexual and presumably heterosexual fantasies among some who identify as homosexual all exist.

Do all these things not direct a person with common sense to view sexual orientation as a position on a continuum, rather than a categorical choice?

I imagine it as an arc-shaped continuum, forming a semi-circular hill.

If you are in the middle, it is easier to choose which way you wish to go. Once you act on that choice, you are likely to slide further down the hill towards that choice. Sexual experience has a profoundly psychological effect on the participant which would surely heavily influence one’s position on the continuum. As Anon2 was wondering, for example, if he had not been sexually abused at adolescence, would his struggle be the same, or is it the uniqueness of that sexual experience that makes it difficult for him to respond to women?

If you are towards one end or another of the continuum of sexual orientation, it is exponentially harder to change, like climbing a steeper hill. For some that may render change seemingly impossible, indeed a harder option than celibacy.

I have strong doubts about the genetic theory, given it has been supported by a lot of agenda-driven rhetoric and no real evidence to date. I admit it as a theoretical position in theological discussion only to demonstrate that if it were true it wouldn’t alter the theological position. The psychological/environmental theories seem far more likely to me, and are certainly supported by real evidence.

But the cause of it doesn’t make the struggle any less, nor the biblical mandate any weaker, nor the pastoral task less urgent.

[quote author="Matt"]I have strong doubts about the genetic theory, given it has been supported by a lot of agenda-driven rhetoric and no real evidence to date

There is another good article in this month’s (October’s) Briefing on the genetic theory for anyone who is interested.

Thanks Dani

Umm...do I have to be a subscriber to access it?

Can you give us the general gist?

Ahhh sorry :)

It’s in this month’s printed briefing- not the web extras.

Here is an excerpt from the article.

“Recent Tests Prove… Science & The Homosexuality Debate” by Michael Hill

Pro-gay activists argue that science has settled the issue of the nature and causation of homosexuality. Are they right? In our contemporary world it is widely thought that having a homosexual disposition or orientation is just something that happens to a person—something like colour-blindness or paralysis. Underlying this widespread belief is the assumption that there is compelling scientific evidence to show that homosexuality is an innate characteristic like skin colour and not a perverse life-style choice. Pro-gay activists like Bishop Spong argue that science has settled the issue of the nature and causation of homosexuality. Some of these activists go on to argue that since science has shown homosexual orientation is not freely chosen then homosexual behaviour it is not morally culpable. People with a homosexual orientation do not have the free choice that is an essential for sinful behaviour.

Stanton Jones and Mark Yarhouse, two American psychologists, have critically analyzed both (1) the scientific evidence behind the belief that homosexual dispositions are innate and (2) the consequent argument that homosexual behaviour per se is as morally acceptable as heterosexual behaviour. In their book Homosexuality: the Use of Scientific Research in the Church’s Moral Debate (IVP, Downers Grove, 2000) they examine the topics of prevalence, causation, psychopathology, and change. A careful, thorough and critical examination of the scientific evidence to date shows that the evidence in support of biological causation is not only contested and conflicting but also shrinking. Given the evidence, they conclude “it may be more accurate and more helpful to pursue an ‘interactionist hypothesis’ where various psychological, environmental and biological factors, together with human choice, contribute to different degrees that vary from person to person”.

He then goes on to look at some of the studies which have been done in more depth and tackles some of the spin-doctoring which follows

If anyone is interested you can purchase a hard copy or pdf copy of individual issues of the Briefing from Matthias Media (although I don’t think this issue is in the online store yet… but you could call the office). I actually recommend it as a great periodical to subscribe to. They have quite a diverse range of articles and whilst I don’t always agree with all the points of view it certainly gets my mind ticking over (and thats an achievement these days!)

Just a few closing remarks from me.

First and foremost: Anon1 and 2...know I’m still praying for you.  Feel free to drop us a line and let us know how things are.

[quote author="Matthew Williams"]I find it curious that homosexuality/heterosexuality is generally spoken of in binary terms, when it is apparent to everyone that bisexuality; homoerotic fantasies among some people who would identify as heterosexual and presumably heterosexual fantasies among some who identify as homosexual all exist.

Do all these things not direct a person with common sense to view sexual orientation as a position on a continuum, rather than a categorical choice?

A friend I confided in recently told me a similar thing.  As we live in a fallen world, sexuality is just as fallen.  As I mentioned on another thread, I have been blessed in that I have a 0% sex drive anyway, which makes it somewhat easier to resist the temptation to go further with men or women.  God is always merciful in some way. 

[quote author="Matthew Williams"]
I have strong doubts about the genetic theory, given it has been supported by a lot of agenda-driven rhetoric and no real evidence to date. I admit it as a theoretical position in theological discussion only to demonstrate that if it were true it wouldn’t alter the theological position. The psychological/environmental theories seem far more likely to me, and are certainly supported by real evidence.

I get confused a lot with the pro- and anti-genetic “lobbies” [for want of a better word]: thanks Dani for “The Briefing” article.  Astronomy is the only science I reasonably understand and I tend to bow to other’s superior knowledge in terms of genetic theories: it is just hard to make a decision who to believe!?!?  But, as Matt said:

[quote author="Matthew Williams"]
But the cause of it doesn’t make the struggle any less, nor the biblical mandate any weaker, nor the pastoral task less urgent.

Amen.