I’m probably going to go to Russian Orthodox church with a friend in a few weeks and I just wondered if anyone could suggest any relevant books or sites for me to look at to better understand the teachings and beliefs of the church. I know a little bit, but not much!

It doesn’t help that it’s all in old, formal Russian, so not only will I not understand it, but my friend doesn’t understand it all either!

Suggestions welcome - thanks everyone!

Han

Maybe just sit back and try and absorb the atmosphere? Those orthodox churches - let alone services! - are complete cultural experiences in themselves! Until you can identify things you don’t know the right questions to ask about belief and why they do things that way (or so I have found anyway). Maybe attend first and ask later? I don’t know. Be prepared for INCENSE (;) ;) in a big way - if you go in a non-smoker you’re bound to come out smelling like you’ve been handling the thurible yourself. I don’t know what sort of congregation you’re going to, but the orthodox are renowned for 3 hour services, through which the congregation is expected to stand - only elderly ladies and the feeble are allowed to sit. Also, I know various brands of Orthodox are very free in their interpretation of what it means to be “in a service”. I believe they move around alot, and it’s not unusual for people to be going around kissing icons during the services. Lastly, it will most definitely be a Eucharist - and all the Eucharistic bits happen behind a big screen through which you can’t see.

That’s pretty much all I know about the sort of stuff that happens in Orthodox services. From what I gather it varies alot, and as I say, you really can’t know what to expect. Expect anything!

Theologically speaking I know a little bit about Orthodoxy, but as I said earlier, you can’t ask what you need to know until you’ve found out what you need to ask!

http://www.sspeterpaul.org/links.html

Hi Hannah,

This is a page of links at an Orthodox church - I offer it without endorsement (or even having checked it out much)!

Cheers
Matt

Hi Hannah,

Here are some very helpful and humorous pages from a wonderful (Antiochian) Orthodox Church I visited this year ( ):

Before your first visit to an Orthodox Church:
Introduction to Orthodoxy:

If you have time to read a bit, “The Orthodox Church” by Bishop Ware ( ) is a treasure trove of information: divided into two sections, history and worship, you can dip in and dip out as well as read the whole thing.  I’ve read it three times!

As Nunc said also, go and enjoy and participate as best you can.  And be prepared to be transported to a different plane if you are not used to symbolism, incense and heavenly music [the Russians are wonderful with music].  It may feel strange and unfamiliar at first, but I’m sure you’ll find it refreshing.

Let us know how it goes,
Ian.

Thanks guys! We haven’t organised anything yet, but I will let you know when we do. I appreciate your comments and links!

:)
Han

Hi Hannah

The theology of Orthodoxy and Catholicism is very similar so I know a fair bit about their theology and practice.

The links that Ian provided are very good and should provide you with some good background information.

Enjoy the experience - Eastern Christianity is truly beautiful and I think you will find the experience quite remarkable.

If you have any specific questions about Orthodox theology etc, I can probably direct you to appropriate sources or links - don’t hesitate to let me know.

YBIC, John.

So Hannah...did you end up going?

Were you knocked out by the smell of the incense?
Did an icon fall down on your head?
Did a falling candle set the place ablaze?

Enquring busybodies want to know!
Ian. ;-) ;-)

No, I haven’t been yet. Work has been very busy and I moved offices so I don’t see her much anymore. Of course there is still email and phone, but we just haven’t had time. I just got home from three weeks leave so I’m waiting to see what tomorrow holds before I take on anything else… but thanks for checking up!

Cheers,
Hannah

The theology of Orthodoxy and Catholicism is very similar so I know a fair bit about their theology and practice.

Hmm. But there are notable differences. Such as the leaning to an Aristotelean view of the world in the west (thanks to St Augustine and others), while the East is more Platonic… This leads to major differences in the understanding of the nature of time and eternity. It also leads to differences in the understanding of God and of human nature; whereas St Augustine goes down the “vile wretch” path later adopted by Calvinism, Orthodoxy takes a much more positive view of God “coming-alongside”, with less of an emphasis on original sin (although it is definitely present). Also, it seems to me from my dealings with the Orthodox that while they are adamant they are the “Best (True) Church” (tm) :P, what constitutes orthodox belief is more fluid than in the West. Take for example the dogma of the Assumption. In Catholicism this is something that is incumbent upon all Catholics to believe (whether they do or not, or how they understand that dogma is an entirely different question!). In the East, while the Assumption is taken as Truth, it is not something that is binding upon all Christians to be believed; it is much more a case of individual discretion and devotion. It is often called in the East, the Dormition of the Mother of God, rather than the Assumption: I think the Western church tends to focus on the translation of Mary rather than the fact that she died (first, before being translated). I think that these are significant differences, indicative of an entirely different structure of belief, and a different set of expectations on the believer.

Anglicans often find themselves drawn more to Eastern Orthodox thought than to Roman thought. Maybe because of this fluidity of belief? There also seems to be a clarity of thought in the East, which is muddied(?) in the West by scholasticism and other theological developments. But I have no evidence to prove this, and it is only speculation.

Nunc,

Thanks for that: very interesting and enlightening.

I’d agree that Anglicans (well, this Anglican at least) may be more drawn towards Orthodoxy rather than Roman Catholicism because of the fluidity you mention.  That is what interested me earlier this year and got me attending an Orthodox church.

I hope all is going well with the Uni work.  You are in my prayers.

Ian.

Hi Nunc / Ian

Thanks for your thoughts on this topic.  I haven’t posted for a while - in the middle of preparing some detailed replies for some other threads.

Nunc you’re right that there are some notable differences with Catholicism / Orthodoxy - it was a little sloppy of me to say that Orthodoxy and Catholicism have a “very similar” theology without going more into the specifics and explaining what I meant.

The Eastern Orthodox Church are definately more “mystical” and less into precisely defined doctrine then the Catholic Church as a whole.  For example, whilst the Orthodox agree with the Catholics about prayers for the dead (do “high” church anglicans practice that as well Nunc out of interest?), the Orthodox Church has not gone so far as to define a precise doctrine like purgatory.  Similarly, if you go to an Eastern Orthodox Church (or Eastern Catholic Church for that matter), you’ll often hear in the Divine Liturgy and in Vespers hyms like this:

“It is truly right to bless you, O Theotokos, ever-blessed and
most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the
Cheribum, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim,
without defilement you gave birth to God the Word: True
Theotokos, we magnify you.”

Most Orthodox would say that Mary was without ACTUAL sin but not without ORIGINAL SIN (like the Catholics), and of course Orthodoxy have not specifically defined the immaculate conception as dogma, although my understanding is that Orthodox Christians may freely believe this without being considered in heresy.  That is a little simplistic as you probably appreciate, but those are just a couple of examples of how the Orthodox and Roman rite Catholics differ in terms of defining precise dogma or taking a more mystical approach.  An Orthodox Priest once told me that from his point of view their is no need to “define” things like the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, etc because it is a matter of reflecting on the mystery rather then having some tightly defined doctrine.  Did you hear about the Orthodox Theologian and Catholic Theologian who were presented with a theological issue that hadn’t been defined?  The Catholic Theologian stayed up until the issue was resolved and clearly defined to his satisfaction whilst the Orthodox Theologian slept peacefully reflecting on the mystery :).

Although, as already mentioned above, don’t forget about the Eastern Catholic Churches (over 20 rites within the Catholic Church) which maintain the Eastern Orthodox spirituality, eastern theology, eastern outlook etc but are in full communion with “Rome”.  For example:

http://www.byzantinecatholic.com

http://www.byzcath.org

http://www.east2west.org

(Sadly, some Eastern Catholic Churches have been “latinised” over the years and have lost part of their eastern identity, but that’s another story!).

In terms of the Catholic / Orthodox differences, I have spent a lot of time studying that over the years.  Here is a good basic source of information (with links to information from both “sides") regarding Catholic / Orthodox differences if you’re ever after any:

http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/orthodoxy_and_catholicism/index.html

What is your perspective of the Balamand Agreement out of interest?

One of the best Catholic discussions of Catholic / Orthodox differences I know of is the Eastern Catholic Q&A on EWTN:  http://www.ewtn.com (you can post questions there about the issue - go to Catholic Q&A).

Here’s a good discussion board with Orthodox Christians on it:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php

Ian, I think you are spot on when you say that some Protestants are more drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy then Catholicism.  Have you guys ever heard of Fr Peter Gillquist?  He was with Campus Crusade and converted to Orthodoxy about 10 years or so ago.  A flood of his parishioners went with him and there are a lot of Protestants entering the Eastern Orthodox Church each year in America.  They even have an American Orthodox Church now:

http://www.oca.org

Fr Peter has a couple of books out if you were ever interested in reading more about the whole Eastern Orthodox thing. One is called “Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith” and the other is “Coming Home: Why Protestant Clergy are Becoming Orthodox”.  I don’t know where you could get them in Australia, but you could order them through amazon.com or something like that.  There is a web site called “The Christian Activist” too which has some writing by Orthodox converts from Baptist / Evangelical backgrounds.  They’re pretty fired up but heh a bit of passion never hurt anyone :).  One of the writers on there is Frank Shaeffer, son of the outstanding Christian writer Francis Shaeffer.

Good chatting guys and I hope you enjoy visiting an Orthodox Church if you ever get the chance to - I find the whole Eastern thing pretty interesting.

YBIC John

The Eastern Orthodox Church are definately more “mystical” and less into precisely defined doctrine then the Catholic Church as a whole. For example, whilst the Orthodox agree with the Catholics about prayers for the dead (do “high” church anglicans practice that as well Nunc out of interest?), the Orthodox Church has not gone so far as to define a precise doctrine like purgatory. Similarly, if you go to an Eastern Orthodox Church (or Eastern Catholic Church for that matter), you’ll often hear in the Divine Liturgy and in Vespers hyms like this:

“It is truly right to bless you, O Theotokos, ever-blessed and
most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the
Cheribum, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim,
without defilement you gave birth to God the Word: True
Theotokos, we magnify you.”

Most Orthodox would say that Mary was without ACTUAL sin but not without ORIGINAL SIN (like the Catholics), and of course Orthodoxy have not specifically defined the immaculate conception as dogma, although my understanding is that Orthodox Christians may freely believe this without being considered in heresy. That is a little simplistic as you probably appreciate, but those are just a couple of examples of how the Orthodox and Roman rite Catholics differ in terms of defining precise dogma or taking a more mystical approach. An Orthodox Priest once told me that from his point of view their is no need to “define” things like the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, etc because it is a matter of reflecting on the mystery rather then having some tightly defined doctrine. Did you hear about the Orthodox Theologian and Catholic Theologian who were presented with a theological issue that hadn’t been defined? The Catholic Theologian stayed up until the issue was resolved and clearly defined to his satisfaction whilst the Orthodox Theologian slept peacefully reflecting on the mystery :).

John, yes we do remember the departed in Anglo-Catholic circles. (In fact, every year for All Saints/All Souls a list is read out of all the faithful connected with the congregation - family members and friends - and we sing the Orthodox Kontakion for the dead. It is very beautiful.) Personally speaking I find it a comfort to do so.

I really dig what you say above about the Orthodox not probing the mystery, but meditating on it - an example I suppose of how A-Cs tend to relate to Orthodoxy.

... We have a number of (formerly?) Orthodox people in our congregation who are quite happy to be there.